...from my other 'on the nose' dialogue thread...

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  • #61
    Re: ...from my other 'on the nose' dialogue thread...

    Mike, it's refreshing to see the number of people on this thread willing to share their knowlege with those who want to grasp the full meaning of subtext and on the nose dialogue.

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    • #62
      Re: ...from my other 'on the nose' dialogue thread...

      Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
      Take a piece of paper before you play this video. When it starts playing, cover up the bottom third of the video.

      Then watch it again without the paper.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLblwVUEHyw
      Jeff, the problem with that Annie Hall scene is that without the subtitles, I wouldn't have gotten that subtext in a million years. The words and actions do not reveal much more than what their explicit words meant.

      From their actions and delivery, I did get they were both shy and insecure. But to me that comes under the heading of revealing character not subtext.

      So if the writer meant for there to be specific subtext, why did he have go spell it out with subtitles?

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      • #63
        Re: ...from my other 'on the nose' dialogue thread...

        Originally posted by sc111 View Post
        Re BF: yes, I thought that was clear in his post.

        Characters (and RL people) often unconsciously reveal something about themselves (their intentions) in their word choice (and emphasis on certain words), sentence construction, tone -- the whole shebang.

        Eavesdrop with wild abandon -- you'll hear it all the time.
        Right, but in my opioinion it's more accurate to say this all comes under the heading of "your dialogue should reveal character, advance the story, be interesting, or to a lesser extent provide exposition."

        There are two ways to acheive the above in your screenplay dialogue. Either on-the-nose or through subtext.

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        • #64
          Re: ...from my other 'on the nose' dialogue thread...

          Originally posted by jonpiper View Post
          Right, but in my opioinion it's more accurate to say this all comes under the heading of "your dialogue should reveal character, advance the story, be interesting, or to a lesser extent provide exposition."

          There are two ways to acheive the above in your screenplay dialogue. Either on-the-nose or through subtext.
          I don't agree -- it's not an either/or thing, in my opinion.
          Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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          • #65
            Re: ...from my other 'on the nose' dialogue thread...

            Originally posted by jonpiper View Post
            Right, but in my opioinion it's more accurate to say this all comes under the heading of "your dialogue should reveal character, advance the story, be interesting, and/or to a lesser extent provide exposition."

            You can acheive the above in your screenplay dialogue on-the-nose and through subtext. Better to use more subtext and less on the nose in your dialogue.
            Originally posted by sc111 View Post
            I don't agree -- it's not an either/or thing, in my opinion.
            I agree with you and edited my post in bold. My point is: use subtext to create dialogue that reveals character, advances story...

            Subtext in nothing by itself. Even when the subtext is a puzzle to solve, it serves the purpose of advancing the story.

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            • #66
              Re: ...from my other 'on the nose' dialogue thread...

              What should all this mean to the OP.

              Put subtext and On The Nose aside. From my view, the dialogue in that opening scene exhibits tons of exposition. And it does that with on the nose dialogue. It needs to show much more character development, advancement of story, and interesting lines through the use of more subtext and less on the nose dialogue.

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              • #67
                Re: ...from my other 'on the nose' dialogue thread...

                Originally posted by jonpiper View Post
                You can acheive the above in your screenplay dialogue on-the-nose and through subtext. Better to use more subtext and less on the nose in your dialogue.

                ****

                I agree with you and edited my post in bold. My point is: use subtext to create dialogue that reveals character, advances story...

                Subtext in nothing by itself. Even when the subtext is a puzzle to solve, it serves the purpose of advancing the story.
                I look at it this way -- again, my opinion -- every screenplay requires exposition in some form or another. The trick is to make it less obvious, to use sleight of hand, get as much mileage out of every word we choose and use as many tools in our bag of tricks we humanly can.

                On-the-nose exposition is the least desirable tool in the bag.

                For example, in Jerry Maguire, "we" want Jerry to finally overcome his various fears of love and commitment, and tell Dorothy he loves her, needs her. And not just because he simply "hates to be alone."

                It's necessary because it's cathartic for both the character and the audience.

                It might be acceptable if, in that final scene, he intrudes on the women's group and delivers an on-the-nose line like: "I love you." Or, "I need you."

                But it's far better -- and MORE loaded with the right measure of subtext, in terms of his emotional arc -- for Jerry to say: "You complete me."

                Now, this example doesn't progress the story -- it's the end of the story.

                But when you think of the entire story, each segment of Jerry's arc, "You complete me," is a brilliant line that speaks volumes. In three words.

                And IMO we should all strive to achieve this instead of "yeah, but-ing" around the fact it's DAMN hard to write professional dialogue. On-the-nose exposition is the lazy way out. Again ... in my opinion.
                Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                • #68
                  Re: ...from my other 'on the nose' dialogue thread...

                  Off-topic stream-of-consciousness (my apologies): Hudson was played by Bill Paxton, and your bringing him up in this thread made me think of The Dark Backward--I loved that movie. And, now that I think about it, not completely off-topic, as the "we're going to Hollywood" refrain in The Dark Backward meant more than the literal.

                  Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                  1mper1um:

                  In Aliens, is it better if Hudson says "Game over, man! Game over!" or "We're in a really bad situation that we're unlikely to survive!"

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                  • #69
                    Re: ...from my other 'on the nose' dialogue thread...

                    Damn, to be honest I was way off about the definition of subtext. I always construed it as saying one thing and meaning another, not sure where I came up with that lol.

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                    • #70
                      Re: ...from my other 'on the nose' dialogue thread...

                      Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                      It might be acceptable if, in that final scene, he intrudes on the women's group and delivers an on-the-nose line like: "I love you." Or, "I need you."

                      But it's far better -- and MORE loaded with the right measure of subtext, in terms of his emotional arc -- for Jerry to say: "You complete me."

                      Now, this example doesn't progress the story -- it's the end of the story.

                      But when you think of the entire story, each segment of Jerry's arc, "You complete me," is a brilliant line that speaks volumes. In three words.

                      And IMO we should all strive to achieve this instead of "yeah, but-ing" around the fact it's DAMN hard to write professional dialogue. On-the-nose exposition is the lazy way out. Again ... in my opinion.
                      Great post.

                      "You complete me" doesn't progress story but in my opinion it reveals character. His character needs her, but he says it in a more interesting subtextual way. He doesn't say "I need you."

                      Some would argue that "You complete me" is easy to understand and therefore cannot contain subtext, but the subtext need NOT be hard to understand.

                      Originally posted by gravitas View Post
                      Damn, to be honest I was way off about the definition of subtext. I always construed it as saying one thing and meaning another, not sure where I came up with that lol.
                      Until recently I thought so too. But now I realize saying one thing and meaning another is just one of many ways to include subtext in dialogue.

                      Does anyone have a list of different ways we can include subtext in our dialogue?

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                      • #71
                        Re: ...from my other 'on the nose' dialogue thread...

                        it's amazing to me the number of writers on this board who just don't grasp even the most basic ideas, such as subtext.

                        the people here arguing with jeff lowell need to just exit their browsers now before they injure themselves


                        And it's amazing to me how there is always someone on an internet forum who comes along simply to state "how stupid someone is" yet never attempts to offer any answers or input into the topic. All they have is the power of criticism.

                        I bet you're writing is beyond fantastic. You probably don't even have to waste your time here with the little people.

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                        • #72
                          Re: ...from my other 'on the nose' dialogue thread...

                          Not to get away from all the bickering or anything, but if you folks want to see some *excellent* "loaded" dialogue, watch WINTER'S BONE. Plenty of very clear, easy to identify examples of characters "saying it without saying it".

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                          • #73
                            Re: ...from my other 'on the nose' dialogue thread...

                            Originally posted by jonpiper View Post
                            What do you mean by another level of meaning under the obvious one. Seriously.

                            Do you mean the word choice or the construction of the sentences in the dialogue also reveals something about the character in addition to what the speaker is explicitly saying?
                            An example - War of the Worlds.

                            Dad: "Since when have you been allergic to peanut butter?"
                            Daughter: "Since birth."

                            Her text: "I've been allergic to peanut butter since birth"

                            Her subtext:
                            1. "What kind of pathetic excuse for a father wouldn't know that about his own daughter ?? "
                            2. ".. but I'm not going to make a big deal about it. This is the kind of disappointment I expect from you. You are a failure as a father. I know it. You know it. Let's just ignore it."

                            His entire relationship with his daughter is wrapped up in that two word reply.

                            Mac
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                            • #74
                              Re: ...from my other 'on the nose' dialogue thread...

                              Originally posted by Mac H. View Post
                              An example - War of the Worlds.

                              Dad: "Since when have you been allergic to peanut butter?"
                              Daughter: "Since birth."

                              Her text: "I've been allergic to peanut butter since birth"

                              Her subtext:
                              1. "What kind of pathetic excuse for a father wouldn't know that about his own daughter ?? "
                              2. ".. but I'm not going to make a big deal about it. This is the kind of disappointment I expect from you. You are a failure as a father. I know it. You know it. Let's just ignore it."

                              His entire relationship with his daughter is wrapped up in that two word reply.

                              Mac
                              Good call, Mac. That's the scene that had me on board.

                              But I think it's important to also include Dad's following action: he throws the peanut butter sandwich at the window. That's also subtext and defining character without using dialogue: he's as much a child as his own children. (I think Cruise's character also throws the baseball through the window near the beginning.)

                              HH

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                              • #75
                                Re: ...from my other 'on the nose' dialogue thread...

                                Originally posted by mikeb View Post
                                it's amazing to me the number of writers on this board who just don't grasp even the most basic ideas, such as subtext.

                                the people here arguing with jeff lowell need to just exit their browsers now before they injure themselves
                                It's amazing to me how anyone thinks there's an argument here, who don't grasp even the most basic concept of debate and difference of opinion. Jeff and I both put forward our respective cases, nothing else.

                                Also, I know Jeff is highly regarded pro but that does not mean I am going to automatically agree or accept what is passed down without running it through my critical faculty first. If it did, I'd be a drone, a sheep, and I'd never form my own opinion. When you listen to a commentator reviewing a game, read a "how to" book on screenwriting, attend a lecture and watch interviews with your favourite musicians and/or directors do you agree 100% with them on every single point? I bet you don't. I bet you listen, consider and then come to your own conclusion, even if that means not ascribing to every point.

                                Jeff, I sincerely hope you don't think I was arguing with you. And then You Tube link you provided the other user was fun to watch and confirmed my pre existing understanding of subtext.

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