Dreamy Stories

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Dreamy Stories

    I've got a story where a good portion of the picture is in a dream state, which is a twist revealed in the middle of the 3rd act. Pretty standard structure -- some people love it, some people hate it.

    I'm trying to figure out why this trope sometimes works really well:

    Jacob's Ladder
    Incident at Owl Creek
    Mulholland Drive (debatable I know)
    even Point Blank by John Boorman
    Wizard of Oz
    lots of other examples here --
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../AllJustADream


    and other times, it doesn't work at all:

    Dallas season ??
    every bad, cheesy soap opera using the device to get out of a fix
    numerous examples I actually can't think of, but must exist because most people's initial reaction to the trope is to roll their eyes...


    Would love your opinions from a craft point of view of how you think this trope works, and what you'd do to make sure the audience didn't feel cheated by this twist...

  • #2
    Re: Dreamy Stories

    This is like walking on the edge of a razor blade. And I'm not sure of the reasons some work and some don't, but I'd like to hear other opinions too, as I'm writing one right now.

    Here's my thoughts. The reason Dallas didn't work, is that it was a cop-out. Everything we had watched was a dream, and nothing in the dream ever happened, and none of characters remember the dream, therefore it did nothing to advance their characters or arcs on the show. Thus, people thought they were ripped of any meaningful purpose.

    The reason the Wizard of Oz worked is because Dorothy has a problem with Miss Gulch in real life. She wants to destroy Toto. In Dorothy's dreamworld, she is put up against the symbolic Miss Gulch (The Wicked Witch) and beats her. Thus, once Dorothy awakens, she remembers the dream and has earned a newfound strength to stand up to the bullies of the world. Also being a runaway, she learns the value of home. So, the journey in the dream actually affects her reality. I think this goes a long way to keeping your audience on your side.

    Love to hear other opinions.


    ETA: Here's a link to a related article.

    http://cineleet.com/2008/03/23/when-...-creek-bridge/
    Last edited by RGF; 01-19-2011, 05:54 PM. Reason: add link

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Dreamy Stories

      the reason Dallas didn't work b/c it wasn't planned. the ratings were going down and they thought it was b/c they got rid of the cute brother. so they brought him back. shows are more careful about killing off their stars now.

      and yes Oz worked b/c it was integral to the story and a necessary component to make the theme work. but also the characters in her dream where all people in her real life... symbolic like we want our dreams to be. we want them to have meaning and be part of our lives. otherwise, what's the point? why does our brain create dreams? everything should have a purpose and not just be weird for weird's sake.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Dreamy Stories

        Originally posted by RGF View Post
        This is like walking on the edge of a razor blade. And I'm not sure of the reasons some work and some don't
        Yes you do! I just read about them. And you're right. The dream state has to connect to the reality in a significant way. It has to make a coherent, important difference. When it doesn't work it's because it's being used almost as a gag, and the dream only serves as confusion: the writer's assumption being that since the confusion has been lifted we will be satisfied as we might be with something confounding in day to day life.

        The only movie I can think of other than OZ that got close to pulling it off for me was EXISTENZ. But that was a while ago and I'm uncertain whether or not I'd stand by that. Something I would stand by as example is BRAZIL, but that didn't feature as much dream time as you seem to be pondering.

        Like RGF sez, it's a fine, fine line. But kudos in seeing it as the greater challenge it is and giving it a hard look.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Dreamy Stories

          What's our opinion on Jacob's Ladder? Does that work? Or Incident at Owl Creek?

          I appreciate this guys, some really good thoughts here.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Dreamy Stories

            I remember feeling cheated by JL. I didn't see the other.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Dreamy Stories

              Whenever I read that it was a dream sequence my eyes glaze over.

              I think great directors with great scripts can pull it off. Lynch, Bergman, Fellini, Cocteau, Cronenberg, and kind of Lyne and Nolan. But remember, they wrote most of their scripts because the were confident of their visuals. Almost every script I've read in workshops with dream sequences was amateur hour.

              Still, the funniest dream within a dream film is Dicillo's 'Living in Oblivion.' Hysterically accurate depiction of indie filmmaking in NYC.
              Last edited by schnipple; 01-20-2011, 05:22 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Dreamy Stories

                i guess INCEPTION it currently the ultimate dream movie. how quickly we forget.

                JL was a little weird. as i recall it was more about hallucinations we see when we're about to die or something like that. actually, i can't really remember.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Dreamy Stories

                  Jacobs Ladder worked for me because...




                  SPOILER ALERT




                  ...it was a hallucinatory descent into the process of dying. The lead character was hanging on to life, yet death was intruding on that. Danny Aiello's character verbalized it quite well near the end of the film...as Jacob was clinging to life as it was being ripped from his hands. So, the film wasn't really a dream, more of an elongated descent into death. So, I didn't feel cheated by the end....I felt thought-provoked...as if I had entered the mind of someone who was dying and got to see a pretty crazy nightmare world of confusion and redemption.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Dreamy Stories

                    Originally posted by NikeeGoddess View Post
                    i guess INCEPTION it currently the ultimate dream movie.
                    He was asking about movies where the dream is revealed as an audience surprise. INCEPTION doesn't fit. Nor was it good, but that's another matter.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Dreamy Stories

                      Originally posted by Mopap View Post
                      He was asking about movies where the dream is revealed as an audience surprise. INCEPTION doesn't fit. Nor was it good, but that's another matter.
                      And here I thought I was the only person in the universe who wasn't head over heels for that movie!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Dreamy Stories

                        Re: Jacob Ladder's success -- Did you feel that what you saw still mattered, even if it didn't happen, or it only happened inside Tim Robbin's head?

                        This is the note I've gotten back on my story - people have felt cheated because "none of it really happened" even though what the main char went through profoundly changes her as she comes out of the dream and we spend the rest of the movie watching her make the big life changes she's needed to make... Of course you can't comment on mine, but interested in opinions on whether we feel that since nothing really happened in Jacob's Ladder, does it have less value than if it everything had actually happened?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Dreamy Stories

                          Originally posted by zampana View Post
                          Re: Jacob Ladder's success -- Did you feel that what you saw still mattered, even if it didn't happen, or it only happened inside Tim Robbin's head?
                          It's been years since I've seen it, so I colour my remarks from a distance, but for me, it all mattered, because it allowed Tim Robbins to come to grips with his dead son (who was easing him through the transition). It allowed him to understand why he was killed (unravel the big mystery). And it gave him hope that there was something better waiting for him on the other side. So, even if it wasn't real....it was real to him...and he changes because of it. (Even if he is the process of dying).

                          As for why you're getting those comments on your script, there's no way for me to know without reading it. Maybe there is something slightly off-putting about the way you structured the plot or created the characters that is making people feel cheated. Have you shown it to any pro story analysts? That's what I would do.

                          ETA:

                          If you haven't read this book below...I highly recommend it. It has the screenplay, but it also has a chronicle of Bruce Joel Rubin's writing process on the script, and he describes how he overcame the same studio concerns about people feeling cheated. Worth your time.

                          http://www.amazon.com/Jacobs-Ladder-...5620186&sr=1-5
                          Last edited by RGF; 01-21-2011, 06:32 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Dreamy Stories

                            I'm particularly interested in this thread because I wrote one of these, it doesn't work, and I haven't been able to put my finger on why it doesn't work. Anyway, no one mentioned Vanilla Sky, and I think it works in that film (up until Tom Cruise is screaming "Tech Support", but that's another issue). One more example: Dreamscape.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Dreamy Stories

                              Well if I've understood you, you're saying your dream aspect of the film, comes as a 'surprise' to the audience, in the thrid act. The fact that it is a surprise, might be why people feel cheated by it.

                              For me, a film like Inception doesn't count, and can't be compared to yours. The dream aspect of that film is set up from the beginning and is a major component of the plot.

                              The same with Jacobs Ladder. From very early on, we as the audience, know that we are jumping through dream/halucinatory/reality states. We might not necessarily know which is which as we watch, but we are aware that it might not be reality. So there is no surprise in the third act. Or rather, no unpleasant surprise.

                              Again, Existenz doesn't count. We are fully aware that there are dream/virtual reality states throughout the film. No (unpleasant) surprise in the third act.

                              However if anyone has seen Repo Men....

                              SPOILERS.....

                              ....it has a dream aspect to it. It's a sci-fi thriller about the removal of body organs from living people. Anyway, there is a virtual reality device in the film, and although it is (very briefly 'set-up' earlier in the film) we find out the last third of the film is all a dream.

                              This absolutely sucked, and pulled all the drama out of the story. Nothing happened the way we thought it did.

                              I can't tell you how crappy it made the film.
                              Last edited by fanatic_about_film; 01-23-2011, 10:05 PM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X