Plot Point 2

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  • #61
    Re: Plot Point 2

    Where is this "pissing match" you speak of?
    I had a split stream this morning. Guess I'm out.
    Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue

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    • #62
      Re: Plot Point 2

      Originally posted by sarajb View Post
      I don't mean to undermine the importance of "calculate less", because it's an invaluable mantra (particularly for me), but I have a question for the working writers:

      Do you know any successful writers who do the opposite? It seems reasonable to think some people write (their) best from a pedantic place, while others, maybe even most others, don't.
      Not one. Not one single one, and I know a whole lot of them.

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      • #63
        Re: Plot Point 2

        Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post
        Not one. Not one single one, and I know a whole lot of them.
        Probably a bad example, but I thought of Terry Rossio. He is of course famous for his Wordplayer columns, and in interviews he has often emphasized that he is a very organized and analytical writer, who follows somewhat strict guidelines in the creative process.

        Mind you, I don't know the entire process that he goes through when writing. And he always co-writes with someone else. Terry has said that his longtime collaborator Ted Elliot is the more crazy and creative one, where as Terry is more analytical.

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        • #64
          Re: Plot Point 2

          Terry, like most of us, is organized. And analytical. But not pedantic. Not "this must happen here, that must happen there, pinch points, pre-instigation, blah blah blah."

          I've never heard him talk like that. Ever. And I have heard him talk the opposite of that.

          For instance, Ted and Terry have both talked to me about their diversion from the traditional three act structure. They viewed the pirates movies more like two act musicals.

          In short, Terry is far from rigid. Rigid and analytical are not equivalent terms.

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          • #65
            Re: Plot Point 2

            Let's all throw eggs at Syd Field. I think these authors of how to books who have never written an actual script are the pedantic ones. Retweet if you agree.
            "I ask every producer I meet if they need TV specs they say yeah. They all want a 40 inch display that's 1080p and 120Hz. So, I quit my job at the West Hollywood Best Buy."
            - Screenwriting Friend

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            • #66
              Re: Plot Point 2

              Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post
              For instance, Ted and Terry have both talked to me about their diversion from the traditional three act structure. They viewed the pirates movies more like two act musicals.
              Do you think that has anything to do with the sequels being so awful?

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              • #67
                Re: Plot Point 2

                Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post
                Not one. Not one single one, and I know a whole lot of them.
                You don't know Ted? Thought you guys had a website together (not that there's anything wrong with that)?

                (Sorry - missed the response and qualification. But, when I had the 3 act convo with Ted it was a *change* in his theories - and was actually after P1 and sometime before or during the writing of P2/3. His contention was that you could have act 2 & 3 without act 1... and I said: Yeah - in a sequel like EMPIRE STRIKES BACK because the set up is in the first film. But, if we were to remove the word "pedantic" we'd have a whole lotta calculating with those guys... and most of the writers I know.)

                PS: When they first got the PIRATES job, there was a dinner at the place down the street from me where Robert Blake offed his wife, and afterwards, Ted did their detailed story pitch in the parking lot - and it was Act1, Act2, Act3.

                - Bill
                Last edited by wcmartell; 01-15-2012, 12:31 PM.
                Free Script Tips:
                http://www.scriptsecrets.net

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                • #68
                  Re: Plot Point 2

                  I've heard of pro writers emphasizing the importance of structure (Goldman)... getting the story up & running ... and that they're very aware of page counts & how it relates to what's happening in the story (Shrader)... and using char bios, boards, cards, outlines etc...

                  I've never heard of a pro writer, outside of Blake Snyder, saying certain plot points have to happen on certain pages. I've only read "this has to happen on page X" in Snyder's book... Which is one of my biggest objections to his method.

                  Syd Field, if I remember correctly, only gives a rough guideline: "around pg X". And if you examine movies, his paradigm pretty much holds up.

                  So yeah, some pros are very organized, but they're not rigid in their thinking & methods from what I can see.

                  "Trust your stuff." -- Dave Righetti, Pitching Coach

                  ( Formerly "stvnlra" )

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                  • #69
                    Re: Plot Point 2

                    Originally posted by Biohazard View Post
                    Do you think that has anything to do with the sequels being so awful?
                    Remind me who you are again?

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                    • #70
                      Re: Plot Point 2

                      Trust me when I tell you, Ted doesn't talk the way people on this thread are talking. He's Steven Hawking compared to this stuff.

                      Or don't trust me.

                      After all, the sequels were terrible, and what the hell does Ted Elliott know?

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                      • #71
                        Re: Plot Point 2

                        Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post
                        Remind me who you are again?
                        He's a man who routinely chimes in to chastize just about anything - but to date, has never put himself or his work out there.

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                        • #72
                          Re: Plot Point 2

                          That ends up being my problem with THE CAT, but I know a bunch of pro writers who like that book (some post on their website) (some may post on this website). I'm a lot looser - and in my book's introduction stress Tools Not Rules and say: There are places in the book where I might say "On page 25, THIS happens"... Those are guidelines, not part of some by-the-numbers formula which must be adhered to. If your Plot Point happens on page 24 or 26 or 32 or doesn't happen at all, depends on the individual script you are writing. Every screenplay and every story is different.

                          The thing that confused me about the OP is that I come at story from a conflict angle - and the idea of "plot point 2 have to be a low point where all hope is lost" (which I assume is from Field) doesn't mean anything to me. And I believe in that Hero's Journey structure the low point for the protag is the mid-point. So different theories work different ways - and you find the way that works for your story.

                          To me (calculate more... if that's what you need) the important thing is that it works, and you do things for reasons (so that when you get into that meeting where they want to change the bleep out of your script you can explain why you did it this way and why that is the best of the available choices... and explain why their wacky idea won't work as well). Basically, use both sides of the brain when writing - not do any half-brained work. But different stories use different methods.

                          - Bill
                          Free Script Tips:
                          http://www.scriptsecrets.net

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                          • #73
                            Re: Plot Point 2

                            Originally Posted by Craig Mazin
                            For instance, Ted and Terry have both talked to me about their diversion from the traditional three act structure. They viewed the pirates movies more like two act musicals.
                            Originally posted by Biohazard View Post
                            Do you think that has anything to do with the sequels being so awful?
                            Putting Bio's snark aside, he brings up an idea I've been wondering about...

                            Do pro writers rely on "gut instinct" or "intuition" or past experience so much that they've never learned certain fundamental storytelling principles or techniques, and this is part of the reason some writers' work is inconsistent?

                            (I'm talking about examining the scripts, not the movies. Obviously talking about movies presents problems b/c the writer doesn't have final say.)

                            I often think that the emphasis on "talent" (as opposed to learned skill) & gut instinct work against writers sometimes. I’ve even heard of writers rejecting “formulas” like Act I, Act II, Act III… as if that was way too limiting for them. I have to roll my eyes at this kind of thinking. (I’m talking about extreme cases here…)

                            Screenwriting demands a certain structure, planning & story design. But what constitute “rigid” is up to interpretation it seems.

                            I don’t find saying certain story beats have to be present at certain locations in the screenplay “rigid”, but some ppl might.

                            "Trust your stuff." -- Dave Righetti, Pitching Coach

                            ( Formerly "stvnlra" )

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                            • #74
                              Re: Plot Point 2

                              Have you read Terry's Brain Cloud column?

                              I think there's a screenwriting version of that - writing from the gut or instinct. When the writer has had enough success that they think they can do anything and it will work because that have that magic touch. And sometimes they *can* pull off that thing... but other times they fail.

                              Instead of thinking maybe it isn't that they have the magic touch; that they were just remembering what they had learned, but now it has faded away. That they can be completely wrong and they need to examine the methods that got them here and maybe return to those - they think they still have that touch. One of the reasons why they often maintain the magic touch delusion is that sometimes the stinkers make money - they have big stars and lots of cool stuff and you end up with enough success that they don't realize the Brain Cloud has taken over.

                              It's too much ego, just like the execs who say "What if they're cowboys!"

                              - Bill
                              Free Script Tips:
                              http://www.scriptsecrets.net

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                              • #75
                                Re: Plot Point 2

                                Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post
                                Remind me who you are again?
                                I'm the guy who asked you a fair question.

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