Plot Point 2

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  • Re: Plot Point 2

    Originally posted by SBScript View Post
    Producers make their living making movies. That doesn't register for you?
    Mr. Mazin was speaking directly about individuals who do not write scripts for a living being able to understand how a script is written.

    I'll dumb it down some more if you are still confused.

    Who's to say screenwriting book authors don't know how to write a screenplay, but a producer does?

    Especially when you consider the fact that many of the authors of those books are also actual screenwriters.

    Comment


    • Re: Plot Point 2

      I just dont want to hand in something that is uneven and all over the place.
      Odds are you will write a couple of stinkers before you get it right.

      Just start writing dude.

      It's not the end of the world if your first screenplay sucks.

      Most pros all say My first (insert number here) screenplays were awful.

      Start writing at keep writing.

      When it clicks you'll be like OH, now I get what those guys were saying.
      Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue

      Comment


      • Re: Plot Point 2

        Originally posted by christopher jon View Post
        Odds are you will write a couple of stinkers before you get it right.

        Just start writing dude.

        It's not the end of the world if your first screenplay sucks.

        Most pros all say My first (insert number here) screenplays were awful.

        Start writing at keep writing.

        When it clicks you'll be like OH, now I get what those guys were saying.
        Truth.

        The only way you learn is by doing. Reading and studying are great and can really help, but you need to be in the hot seat first before you can apply that knowledge and understand how and why things work.

        Comment


        • Re: Plot Point 2

          Originally posted by ricther View Post
          Wow. Well i guess i should trash that book. This is me. I want to be a professional screenwriter. I have a lot of stories that i want to tell and i live for movies. I know what i want to write. I have a clear beginning, middle, and end in my head. I just dont want to hand in something that is uneven and all over the place.
          Just write, man. Don't worry about plot points and low points and stupid f#cking guru points.

          Just write.

          Your new best friends names are now Trial and Error.

          Comment


          • Re: Plot Point 2

            Originally posted by christopher jon View Post
            Odds are you will write a couple of stinkers before you get it right.

            Just start writing dude.

            It's not the end of the world if your first screenplay sucks.

            Most pros all say My first (insert number here) screenplays were awful.

            Start writing at keep writing.

            When it clicks you'll be like OH, now I get what those guys were saying.
            I think we should leave it at that. This thread has gotten a bit out of hand. And i will start a new one with a question that has come up during this debate.

            Comment


            • Re: Plot Point 2

              Originally posted by Biohazard View Post
              There seems to be a double standard at work here...

              Writers should not listen to screenwriting gurus or authors of screenwriting books who don't make their livings as screenwriters. Instead, they should write a great story only to turn it over post-sale to producers and directors and corporate suits - who don't make their livings as screenwriters - so these people can change everything around, and in turn, tell the writer how his or her own story should be written?

              ...
              Yes. You are definitely confused. Your primary confusion seems to be between two distinct concepts.

              Concept #1: Reading
              Concept #2: Writing

              Screenwriting Gurus know how to read, and think that means they know how to write.

              Producers know how to read, and think that means they know how to tell you what they thought of your script.

              See the difference?

              "I read, so here's how to write."

              "I read, and here's what I thought of what I just read."

              The latter is occasionally useful. Occasionally.

              The former is 100% useless.

              Comment


              • Re: Plot Point 2

                Originally posted by ricther View Post
                Wow. Well i guess i should trash that book. This is me. I want to be a professional screenwriter. I have a lot of stories that i want to tell and i live for movies. I know what i want to write. I have a clear beginning, middle, and end in my head. I just dont want to hand in something that is uneven and all over the place.
                Yes. Trash that book, whatever it is.

                Here's a much better exercise.

                I want you to watch Die Hard, and make your own list of scenes, sequences and moments. Forget a number. Make it as many as you want. One per scene, or five per scene. Break it down in a way that is intuitive, interesting and natural to YOU.

                BUT... for each moment, make sure you also note how the characters in each scene have changed, surprised us, altered the flow of events or discovered something important.

                Instead of "and then, and then, and then" always consider the moment, and then ask WHY. WHY did this happen? Ask HOW. HOW does this dramatically alter the narrative? The characters? My relationship-- as an audience member-- to the story I am watching?

                Comment


                • Re: Plot Point 2

                  Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post
                  Screenwriting Gurus know how to read, and think that means they know how to write.

                  Producers know how to read, and think that means they know how to tell you what they thought of your script.

                  See the difference?

                  "I read, so here's how to write."

                  "I read, and here's what I thought of what I just read."
                  I understand your point, but bringing a script to someone who doesn't understand how screenplays work seems more useless than listening to someone who makes a living off of helping others understand how screenplays work.

                  If there's a problem with my car, I'm not taking it to a salesman. I'm taking it to a mechanic.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Plot Point 2

                    Originally posted by Biohazard View Post
                    If there's a problem with my car, I'm not taking it to a salesman. I'm taking it to a mechanic.
                    Now you're just grasping at straws.

                    Is this analogous car of yours one you've built yourself? Because that's the only way your analogy holds water.

                    You build the script yourself. You take it to the salesman/producer because he knows how the f#ck to do the rest.

                    The mechanic doesn't know how to do what you did or what the salesman does. He's looking from the outside-in and making blind observations like a sports fan screaming at his TV when his team makes a mistake on Monday Night Football.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Plot Point 2

                      Originally posted by ATB View Post
                      Is this analogous car of yours one you've built yourself? Because that's the only way your analogy holds water.
                      If there's a problem with the car that I'm building, I'm going to seek advice from a mechanic, not a salesman.

                      Fair?

                      Comment


                      • Re: Plot Point 2

                        Originally posted by Biohazard View Post
                        If there's a problem with the car that I'm building, I'm going to seek advice from a mechanic, not a salesman.

                        Fair?
                        No, not fair. The mechanic (i.e. screenwriting guru) doesn't know how to build a car. Nor does the salesman.

                        If there's a problem with the car that you're building, go to someone who knows how to build a car from the ground-up. Meaning: get advice from other screenwriters who know what the hell they're doing.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Plot Point 2

                          Originally posted by ATB View Post
                          No, not fair. The mechanic (i.e. screenwriting guru) doesn't know how to build a car. Nor does the salesman.

                          If there's a problem with the car that you're building, go to someone who knows how to build a car from the ground-up. Meaning: get advice from other screenwriters who know what the hell they're doing.
                          Let's not avoid the point I made just before...who's to say a producer knows more about how to write a screenplay than a guy who makes a living off of helping people understand how to write screenplays?

                          Sure, a producer is your best friend if you're writing Scary Movie 5, but a serious story from the writer's heart deserves - no, requires - that you understand how to transform the emotions that you feel inside into not only a working, sound screenplay, but one of quality.

                          If you're looking to create something of quality, you consult those who understand how to construct whatever you are building.

                          Why *wouldn't* you?

                          Comment


                          • Re: Plot Point 2

                            Originally posted by Biohazard View Post

                            If you're looking to create something of quality, you consult those who understand how to construct whatever you are building.

                            Why *wouldn't* you?
                            That's what you're not getting. The gurus that everyone follows aren't successful screenwriters. Meaning they don't know how to construct "something of quality."

                            Only those that have constructed something of quality (and preferably consistently) know how to do that.

                            You can't look at a great script and tell me how the writer accomplished something like that. No plot points, act breaks, character flaws, low or high points or anything in between can replicate that writer's process.

                            That's *why* I wouldn't go to a mechanic to help me build a quality car. I'd go to someone who consistently builds quality cars.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Plot Point 2

                              Originally posted by ATB View Post
                              The gurus that everyone follows aren't successful screenwriters.
                              Neither are producers. That is my point.

                              Why are we told not to listen to books when the authors are not (all, though some are) professional screenwriters, yet when a script sells, the very first thing that producers and directors and corporate suits do is tell you how to change your own story when they themselves are not making a living as writers either?

                              It's a double standard, plain and simple.



                              To quote a working, professional screenwriter who is much smarter than myself:

                              "Everyone swings a golf club differently, but the ones who do it the best have similar swings. The pros don't make random swings, they deconstruct the mechanics of their swing and fine tune it to make it as efficient and successful as they can. (Blake) Snyder, and everyone who writes about screenplay theory, is doing the same thing by deconstructing what has been proven successful for others so you can apply it to your own approach and hopefully improve your game."

                              Since when is there harm in understanding what you are attempting to do?

                              Comment


                              • Re: Plot Point 2

                                Originally posted by Biohazard View Post
                                Let's not avoid the point I made just before...who's to say a producer knows more about how to write a screenplay than a guy who makes a living off of helping people understand how to write screenplays?
                                Some producers understand story and some don't.

                                Either way, it's the producer that's going to get your movie off the ground, not a screenplay "guru".

                                What do you think the chances are that Syd Field is going to find the cash to fund your film? Or even point you in the right direction to move the project to the next step?

                                Zero, I'd think.
                                il faut d'abord durer

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