Central Dramatic Argument

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  • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

    Originally posted by asjah8 View Post
    ... but that's because the character supports the dramatic argument the writer is making.
    Bingo!

    Everything hinges on the CDA.
    "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
    - Clive Barker, Galilee

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    • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

      Originally posted by ATB View Post
      Man there's a lot of analysis going on in here.
      It reminds me of that old saying... "When everything is said and done a whole lot more will be said than done."
      STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

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      • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

        Originally posted by jonpiper View Post

        How does that particular snippet of dialogue inform us of the CDA in Die Hard?
        Originally posted by ATB View Post
        Well, it tells us that McLane realizes how selfish he's been, that his wife is "the best thing that ever happened to a bum like [him]." So the CDA, I'm guessing, has to do with that relationship dynamic....
        That isn't what I meant. Sorry, I didn't ask the question clearly. I'll try again.

        Why does Craig believe those particular lines of dialogue will lead us to the CDA of Die Hard? In general what are we looking for that will lead us to the CDA in someone elses screenplay?

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        • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

          Originally posted by jonpiper View Post
          That isn't what I meant. Sorry, I didn't ask the question clearly. I'll try again.

          Why does Craig believe those particular lines of dialogue will lead us to the CDA of Die Hard?
          I think that does answer your question. From my POV, if you've got an argument (CDA) and believe only one side of that argument is true, then you're essentially teaching your audience a lesson by teaching your characters a lesson.

          So... McClane learns a lesson, and he tells us he's learned that lesson in that snippet of dialogue.

          McClane was wrong to neglect his wife. And now he realizes it.

          In general what are we looking for that will lead us to the CDA in someone elses screenplay?
          What lesson has a character learned? I think that will lead you to the CDA of a given story.

          Comment


          • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

            Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post
            Here's a hint:

            Quote:
            MCCLANE
            (long pause)
            Look...I'm getting a bad feeling up
            here...I'd like you to do something
            for me. Look up my wife...don't ask
            how, you'll know by then...and tell
            her...tell her...I've been a jerk.
            When things panned out for her, I
            should've been behind her all the way
            ...We had something great going until
            I screwed it up...She was the best
            thing that ever happened to a bum
            like me. She's heard me say I love
            you a thousand times, but she never
            got to hear this...honey...I'm sorry.
            (pause)
            You get all that?
            Now... here's my question for you.

            Why is that in there?

            Why did they take the time from all the shooting and explosions and awesomeness for that?

            Now, is that the way McLean feels at the end?

            How does he feel?

            Why?

            You guys shouldn't be asking these questions of me or anyone else. You should be figuring this stuff out yourselves. Come on. Do your own homework. Only way you're gonna learn.
            That dialogue is there because at that late point in the movie McClean has faught and enured but doesn't think he'll make it to the end and he needs to get that message off his chest.

            That is a natural place to slow down the action.

            Sure he feels that way at the very end. But Holly never gets the message, because he survives. They get together and he never says it, because "love is never having to say you're sorry." Oops another movie.

            But does this mean that's what the story is about? See below.

            Originally posted by jonpiper View Post
            [To ATB] That isn't what I meant. Sorry, I didn't ask the question clearly. I'll try again.

            Why does Craig believe those particular lines of dialogue will lead us to the CDA of Die Hard? In general what are we looking for that will lead us to the CDA in someone elses screenplay?
            Originally posted by ATB View Post
            I think that does answer your question. From my POV, if you've got an argument (CDA) and believe only one side of that argument is true, then you're essentially teaching your audience a lesson by teaching your characters a lesson.

            So... McClane learns a lesson, and he tells us he's learned that lesson in that snippet of dialogue.

            McClane was wrong to neglect his wife. And now he realizes it.



            What lesson has a character learned? I think that will lead you to the CDA of a given story.
            OK, I did a quick read of the script.

            John and Holly's relationship and feelings for each other are established early, before Hans and the boys take over the building.

            The rest of the story is John McClane battling the "terrorists". John must defeat the terrorists for two reasons. He's a cop and his ex whom he still loves is a hostage. The obstacles and tension become ever greater. John is bloodied and beaten by the ordeal but he is ****ing up Hans' plans. How can Hans stop this cowboy. Will Hans learn that Holly and John are husband and wife? Perhaps their relationship is a device to add suspense and tension to the plot. It also gives him a reason for being there as an outsider.

            By the time of the above McClane dialogue we are nearing the end when McClane doesn't think he'll survive. That Holly and John still love each other was established at the beginning.

            John didn't need to learn that he still loved her. What character arc did this whole ordeal take John through? Does a character arc necessairly tell us what the CDA is? What is the CDA? What's the main argument in this story?

            Somebody, a few pages back said the big argument was something about small dedicated focused force overcomming a powerful force. Many more scenes, action and dialogue passages argued that.
            Last edited by jonpiper; 01-28-2012, 05:27 AM.

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            • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

              He doesn't feel that way at the end.

              You think at the end of the movie he thinks he's a jerk who doesn't deserve her?

              You think this is in the movie to "slow it down?"

              Really?

              Comment


              • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post
                He doesn't feel that way at the end.

                You think at the end of the movie he thinks he's a jerk who doesn't deserve her?

                You think this is in the movie to "slow it down?"

                Really?
                No, no he doesn't feel he's a jerk. After the end he will prove to her he isn't the jerk he meant to tell her he was in that passage. He feels he had been a jerk.

                I thought that was a great place to put that dialogue. A lull in the action, just before the action takes off again.

                What do you think the CDA is?

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                • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                  Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post
                  Here's a hint:



                  Now... here's my question for you.

                  Why is that in there?

                  Why did they take the time from all the shooting and explosions and awesomeness for that?

                  Now, is that the way McLean feels at the end?

                  How does he feel?

                  Why?

                  You guys shouldn't be asking these questions of me or anyone else. You should be figuring this stuff out yourselves. Come on. Do your own homework. Only way you're gonna learn.
                  Nuh uh.

                  You could remove the Holly McLane character completely (she never made it to the party... stayed home to take care of little Lucy who has botulism, keeps throwing up on the maid) and still have thematically focused movie. (Yeah, I'd go with the "one man" thing...)

                  Lose this speech and you definitely lose some (albeit very cool) emotional resonance. But you lose ZERO... ahem... "CDA."

                  Comment


                  • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                    The main reason Die Hard works is because the characters all have great backstories, even the little ones. Plus they all have guns.
                    Chicks Who Script podcast

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                    • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                      Originally posted by jonpiper View Post

                      OK, I did a quick read of the script.

                      John and Holly's relationship and feelings for each other are established early, before Hans and the boys take over the building.

                      By the time of the above McClane dialogue we are nearing the end when McClane doesn't think he'll survive. That Holly and John still love each other was established at the beginning.

                      John didn't need to learn that he still loved her. What character arc did this whole ordeal take John through?
                      There's a difference between loving someone and supporting them. McClane didn't support Holly's decision to take her dream job in L.A. He chose to stay in New York and basically wait for her to fail and come back.

                      Obviously, that's pretty selfish. He let his wife take his kids across the country and refused to leave NYC.

                      In the first few pages of the script, we get this exchange with McClane's limo driver:


                      ARGYLE

                      (instantly)
                      So, you divorced of what?

                      McClane gives up.

                      MCCLANE
                      She had a good job, it turned into a great career.

                      ARGYLE
                      But meant her moving here.

                      MCCLANE
                      Closer to Japan. You're fast.

                      ARGYLE

                      So, why didn't you come?

                      MCCLANE
                      'Cause I'm a New York cop who used to be a New York kid, and I got six months backlog of New York scumbags I'm still trying to put behind bars. I don't just get up and move.

                      ARGYLE
                      (to the point)
                      You mean you thought she wouldn't make it out here and she'd come crawling on back, so why bother to pack?
                      So, you see? It doesn't matter if McClane and Holly love each other. He wasn't willing to pack up his life and move with her.

                      He should have. But he's too selfish to realize that.

                      That's why the situation in the tower needs to happen. McClane needs to know that he can really, truly lose his wife. That she may never come "crawling on back" to NYC. That he has to fight for his marriage...

                      Comment


                      • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                        Originally posted by Shari Hari View Post
                        Nuh uh.

                        You could remove the Holly McLane character completely (she never made it to the party... stayed home to take care of little Lucy who has botulism, keeps throwing up on the maid) and still have thematically focused movie. (Yeah, I'd go with the "one man" thing...)

                        Lose this speech and you definitely lose some (albeit very cool) emotional resonance. But you lose ZERO... ahem... "CDA."
                        You take Holly McClane out of the mix and all you have is a cowboy shooting up terrorists.

                        He would have no personal connection to any of the hostages. If they die, he might lose sleep over it, but he would move on. I mean, hey, sh!t happens. Can't hold yourself responsible because some trigger happy terrorists went nutso on a tower.

                        But with Holly at the mercy of these terrorists, McClane has a purpose. He has to succeed or he will lose his wife for good.

                        You don't just lose sleep when you fail to save your wife from being murdered.

                        So, no... Die Hard would not be the same movie without Holly McClane.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                          Originally posted by emily blake View Post
                          The main reason Die Hard works is because the characters all have great backstories, even the little ones. Plus they all have guns.
                          "Plus they all have guns." I did an actual spit-take on that. Perfect set-up for it. Thanks.

                          And I'm still chuckling as I click--

                          Comment


                          • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                            Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post

                            I'm smoking cigars with him tomorrow night (suck it, haters!), so I'll ask him. I'll dutifully report back what he says, even if it contradicts me.

                            I readily grant that my way isn't the only way, but I think it's a good way.
                            So btw what'd Scott have to say?

                            Love to hear.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                              My first attempt at the CDA was too esoteric so I'm giving this another shot

                              CDA - how our own needs cause us to lose sight of what's important.

                              Christmas - biggest gift and marketing holiday of the year.
                              Hans - a character who would terrorize a corporate tower full of people to satisfy his own need.
                              McClane - a cop whose need at being the best at what he does has caused his marriage to fall apart. His arc is to let go. His biggest challenge is a situation where he can't let go or people could die.
                              Holly- a rising star in the corporate world who has given up on her marriage to focus on her own need to be successful.
                              Jewelry, bearer bonds, donuts, limousines, cocaine, etc. - all symbols of avarice and over-the-top needs.

                              At the beginning McClaine argues with his wife and has to be right. At the end, he's willing to give up his control; Powell shoots the terrorist and Holly punches the Fed.

                              I think that bit of dialogue from Mcclane is important is because he's learned to say he's sorry, let go of his control, and he's now willing to focus on what's important in life.

                              If I'm even close -cool. If not, well I give up LOL.
                              life happens
                              despite a few cracked pots-
                              and random sunlight

                              Comment


                              • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                                Originally posted by ATB View Post
                                So, no... Die Hard would not be the same movie without Holly McClane.
                                Agreed. No doubt.

                                But ask yourself this... exactly *how much* of its essential, thematically satisfying "Die Hardness" would be lost if you watched a cut without the above dialogue?

                                If you never knew it existed in the first place, I'd say not much.

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