Complexity vs simplicity

[Dr. Vergerus]

Re: Complexity vs simplicity

What is a "sobarazzi"?

[christopher jon]

Re: Complexity vs simplicity

Damn typo. Now edited. Snobarazzi. Film snobs.

[Dr. Vergerus]

Re: Complexity vs simplicity

Ah, ok. But we don't need to take to the extreme of snobbism. When thinking of what's entertaining, we all have slightly or largely different ideas and tastes. When I consider what's entertaining to me, it often has a certain degree or richness, both in characters and story; I'm not talking about arthouse stuff, which I can enjoy too, but commercial stuff.

Alien. The Big Lebowsky. Sideways. The Fast and the Furious. The exorcist. I found them all very entertaining. Drive, in comparison, is almost too stripped down, characters are pretty much cliches, as is the story. But I like it a lot, and so did a lot of other people. I'm sure there's some lesson to be learned here, but haven't found it yet.

[TwoBrad Bradley]

Re: Complexity vs simplicity

How do we know if we're writing a complex story or a simple story?

[BattleDolphinZero]

Re: Complexity vs simplicity

How do we know if we're writing a complex story or a simple story?

Come on, man.

[roscoegino]

Re: Complexity vs simplicity

A simple story must be multi-dimensional, not necessarily complex. I think that works best for most people. You don't won't to bore viewers. You don't want to confuse them either.

[Unfinishe]

Re: Complexity vs simplicity

Funny you should mention *Drive* because that was the movie that got me thinking on this subject. It's a very simple story, almost too simple, and told in a very straightforward manner -beautifully shot, though. And it seems people like it more than other films with richer characters, story and/or structure. And the thing is, I think I liked it better too, so it made me consider what it is I expect from a story, what makes a good story vs what makes a good movie, or even the relative importance of the story. All this as a viewer, not a wannabe writer.

I also enjoyed Drive but because it was different. Something's so retro that it becomes novel, and that's probably part of the reason why critics (and people who watch lots of movies) liked it. Still think it's over-rated, an exercise in style.

If Inception tricked viewers into believing it had depth then Drive seduced them. I've gone through the typical arguments on both and concluded that in each case the emperor had no clothes.

[jonpiper]

Re: Complexity vs simplicity

It doesn't matter if the story is simple or complex. What matters is how you write it.

You can screw up a simple story by making it confusing and make a complex story great by telling it clearly.

[kintnerboy]

Re: Complexity vs simplicity

Completely off topic, but I love going over to websites with lots of reviews from average people (say like Amazon, for example) whenever a really polarizing film comes along, like a Drive or No Country For Old Men.

Despite what you may assume, there is almost always a direct correlation between the literacy levels of the people writing the 5 star reviews and the 1 stars, lending some pretty inarguable credence to the idea that people who 'hated' a well-reviewed movie just didn't get it, despite their protests to the contrary.

And I really don't see what they're all riled up about. There are more than enough Michael Bays and James Camerons in the world to keep them entertained.

[kintnerboy]

Re: Complexity vs simplicity

Having said that, I can't think of any connection between my favorite films and the level of complexity in their telling, although sometimes a really complex film, like Chinatown, insists on multiple viewings before it's genius is realized.

Technique is everything.

[tucsonray]

Re: Complexity vs simplicity

Simple story ... complex characters.

Maybe I'm too simple to grasp greater complexities, but I'm going old school on this one -- A History of Violence and Gran Torino... or perhaps more accurately simple stories told in (relatively) simple ways with reasonably complex characters/issues.

[Crash BamBoom]

Re: Complexity vs simplicity

Stories are simple. At least the good ones. Translator Robert Fitzgerald noted the Odyssey is about a man who cared for his wife and wanted to rejoin her. That's not the plot, but that's the story. Hamlet is a simple story. Romeo and Juliet. Wizard of Oz. Casablanca. Complex characters though.

[Mr A]

Re: Complexity vs simplicity

Inception = Simple story in a complex way.

Is that what you mean?

Is it, though?

I mean the execution of the third act is nothing new. It's just an instance of parallel plots interacting, we saw that in Star Wars ep VI too: Solo's actions on Endor had great consequences for Lando in space who's action in turn had great consequences for Luke's confrontation with Vader and the Emperor.

I liked the movie, but I wasn't as impressed by it as I was by Memento, for instance.

[TwoBrad Bradley]

Re: Complexity vs simplicity

Simplicity. Strive for it.

Simplicity relies on execution. The more stripped down your plot/story is, the more it relies on your characters to make it interesting.

Most of your favorite movies are extremely simple. No need to start listing sh!t like Usual Suspects, we all know there are awesome complex plots out there, but overwhelmingly, simplicity is the foundation of excellence.

Another place in these forums where I hear "complex stories" is when someone describes their screenplay as being too complex for a one sentence, 25-word logline.

I know there are many complex great stories, but is that what people are looking for?

Do they prefer to be pitched with a simple 25-word logline?

[Dan]

Re: Complexity vs simplicity

Just an idea, but it really helps to distinguish 'complex' from 'complicated'.

For me, something can be amazingly complex and still elegant - like a fractal, or snowflake. Complexity can be about stories resonating at different levels, characters working through inevitably discordant motives and goals, diverse but equally justifiable values clashing.

Complicated (for me) indicates a deficit - i.e. the story could have been communicated more efficiently - and is not desirable. Complicated stories are ones where it is the 'craft', somewhere, that's lacking.

So complexity v complicated is perhaps akin to 'Memento' v 'Southland Tales', (though you've all probably got examples that resonate with you).

The point is that complexity is inherent, and it is those things - whether in nature or in stories - that we're drawn to.

For me, complexity in stories, and characters, is almost always desirable. And the ability to tell a complex story elegantly and organically is what sets apart a great writer.