Second act. How to build it?

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  • #16
    Re: Second act. How to build it?

    Originally posted by BattleDolphinZero View Post
    I learned this from Haas. He didn't think it was ingenious but I did:

    After lining up the scenes the flow naturally (and occur easily), I always get stuck. What Haas reccomended--that I now do always--is go to the 2nd act low point. Write down what it is. From there, you can build back some mandatory scenes.
    That's some pretty sweet advice. Adding that to my quiver right now.

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    • #17
      Re: Second act. How to build it?

      Originally posted by BattleDolphinZero View Post
      I learned this from Haas. He didn't think it was ingenious but I did:

      After lining up the scenes the flow naturally (and occur easily), I always get stuck. What Haas reccomended--that I now do always--is go to the 2nd act low point. Write down what it is. From there, you can build back some mandatory scenes.

      example

      LOWPOINT -- Hero has lost his job, his girl, his best friend, and the bad guy has gotten away with the map. It's a fvcked.

      So now you know you need the scene where he loses his job, you need the scene where his girl dumps him, you need the falling out with his best friend, and the bad guy has to escape in a scene.

      Maybe this is "duh" for most of you but it was very helpful for me. Because, usually, when I look at these scenes listed (as they are above), i know which ones come first. And the next thing you know, most of the 2nd act is outlined.
      I like that suggestion myself.

      It's weird, writing sometimes feels to me a bit like cheating. Especially when you take the above "working backwards" method on board. You're basically writing scenes that enable you to get to a point you want to hit; grinding the gears as it were.

      It's how effectively you grind the gears that make the difference, I guess.
      @MacBullitt

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      • #18
        Re: Second act. How to build it?

        The midpoint is the engine that powers the 2nd Act. A strong midpoint will make the latter half of your script breeze through. A weak one will make the wheels fall off.

        Think of these midpoints:

        ALIENS - The dropship crashes and the Marines are stranded.

        JURASSIC PARK- The T-Rex escapes.

        RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK - The Nazis get the Ark.

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        • #19
          Re: Second act. How to build it?

          This is the way I tend to work, roughly. YMMV.

          I start by defining the second act. It's a goal. "Will Indy get the Ark?" "Will the team defeat the Alien?" etc.

          Let's run with Alien, as I watched that one recently. So the second act begins when they bring the facehugger back to the ship, and ends when they kill ash. That represents an end because at that point they are no longer trying to battle the Alien, they are trying to run from it. So I look for my big end-of-act-two setpiece. What question am I resolving?

          I look for the moment when I first ask the question, that's my beginning of act two. Look for a way to make that a big moment.

          Then I look for a midpoint. Some major way to ramp up the stakes. In Alien it's when one of the grunts gets killed - before, they were battling this small little thing. Now, they're fighting something that's huge and very, very deadly.

          Now I look for 10-15 minute sequences - usually around four - to get me through the second act, with the midpoint in the middle. In Alien these are pretty straightforward: The attempt to figure out what the thing is on the guy's face, the attempt to find the mini-alien which just burst out of the guy's chest, the attempt to flush the big alien through the air shafts into the airlock, and the attempt figure out what's really going on with their mission.

          I try to phrase these things and questions and answers. "Will they find the mini alien?" "Yes, but ... now it's not so mini." The answer to each question is always "Yes, but ... " or "No, and/so ..." "Will they flush it into the airlock?" "No, and the captain dies. So now Ripley is in charge."

          Then each of those sequences get broken down into 3-5 scenes, with it's own culmination.

          It's important to note that this stuff often doesn't seem that distinct when you first watch a movie. eg, it doesn't feel like they've stopped trying to fight the alien after Ash dies - because obviously they're fighting the Alien through the whole movie - but their goal has changed from "kill the alien" to "get the F out of here."

          Seeing this sort of thing gets easy with practice, but is invisible without it.

          (Incidentally, someone wrote that the Nazis getting the ark was a midpoint, but I disagree. The way I think about it, that's the end of the act - although the movie has a long third act. Indy spends the second act trying to find the ark. Will he find the ark? Yes ... but the nazis take it from him. The third act is his attempt to recover the arc from the Nazis.)

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          • #20
            Re: Second act. How to build it?

            Originally posted by BattleDolphinZero View Post
            After lining up the scenes the flow naturally (and occur easily), I always get stuck. What Haas reccomended--that I now do always--is go to the 2nd act low point. Write down what it is. From there, you can build back some mandatory scenes.
            That's how I approach each Act (not just Act II). Map out the plot reversal/high/low points and reverse engineer it from there.

            The best part is backing yourself into a corner then having to come up with imaginative **** to get your characters to the next plot point... sometimes I suspect this is how the Breaking Bad writers must work.

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            • #21
              Re: Second act. How to build it?

              Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
              (Incidentally, someone wrote that the Nazis getting the ark was a midpoint, but I disagree. The way I think about it, that's the end of the act - although the movie has a long third act. Indy spends the second act trying to find the ark. Will he find the ark? Yes ... but the nazis take it from him. The third act is his attempt to recover the arc from the Nazis.)
              That was me. And you're right, I misspoke. The Nazis getting the Ark isn't the midpoint.

              But I disagree with your breakdown.

              I'd say the midpoint is Indy finding the Ark, followed soon after by the Nazis stealing it. The airplane fight and truck scene (awesome!) are all the second half of Act II, which is thematically set apart by being entirely in the desert.

              The third act/low point comes when the Nazis take both Marion and the Ark from Indy.

              That's how I see it, at least.

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              • #22
                Re: Second act. How to build it?

                I don't even know if you can use Raiders as an effective example on 3 act structure. I'm sure there are signposts that could look like certain things, but I think it's broken into something like 7 acts.

                It's a movie designed like the old radio serials.

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                • #23
                  Re: second act. how to build it?

                  Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
                  your movie is Act II. Act I is the set up and Act III is the resolution but II is the story.
                  IMO the above is more or less correct.

                  My 2nd Act epiphany came from Kal Bashir, whose work I highly recommend. He goes over 2nd Act in detail.

                  2nd Act is all about the New World/State.

                  2nd Act should start at the First Threshold but, depending on how you section the story, it can seem to start later at, as Bashir describes it, "the Physical Separation into the Deeper New World."

                  From the First Threshold, it's about "acquiring tangibles" and "incremental change" and stuff. In RAIDERS Indy pulls out the headpiece and Marion from Nepal. In HUNGER GAMES, the kids learn how to fight.

                  From the Physical Separation, it's about "pulling away from the older self," oracle, sword, resolve, "surpassing limitations," exiting and so on. In RAIDERS Indy and Marion pull away from their older animosity, the Well of Souls tells them where the Ark is and they find it, he comes out of burial with resolve and overcomes his Belloq limitation by stealing the Ark back ("again we see there is nothing you can possess which I cannot take away") and getting out of the desert.

                  You can also look at the New World/State as the major change phase. You go in as one creature and come out as another. In HANGOVER, Stu goes in a dork and comes out all manned-up.

                  IMO Bashir is a fvcking genius. His youtube videos are seriously cool.
                  Story Structure 1
                  Story Structure 2
                  Story Structure 3

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                  • #24
                    Re: second act. how to build it?

                    Originally posted by Timmy View Post
                    IMO the above is more or less correct.

                    My 2nd Act epiphany came from Kal Bashir, whose work I highly recommend. He goes over 2nd Act in detail.

                    2nd Act is all about the New World/State.

                    2nd Act should start at the First Threshold but, depending on how you section the story, it can seem to start later at, as Bashir describes it, "the Physical Separation into the Deeper New World."

                    From the First Threshold, it's about "acquiring tangibles" and "incremental change" and stuff. In RAIDERS Indy pulls out the headpiece and Marion from Nepal. In HUNGER GAMES, the kids learn how to fight.

                    From the Physical Separation, it's about "pulling away from the older self," oracle, sword, resolve, "surpassing limitations," exiting and so on. In RAIDERS Indy and Marion pull away from their older animosity, the Well of Souls tells them where the Ark is and they find it, he comes out of burial with resolve and overcomes his Belloq limitation by stealing the Ark back ("again we see there is nothing you can possess which I cannot take away") and getting out of the desert.

                    You can also look at the New World/State as the major change phase. You go in as one creature and come out as another. In HANGOVER, Stu goes in a dork and comes out all manned-up.

                    IMO Bashir is a fvcking genius. His youtube videos are seriously cool.
                    That's one way of saying, "Stories are about change."

                    There are exceptions, but that's how I look at it. You can use all the mumbo jumbo terms you want, but stories are about sh!t happening and sh!t changing.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Second act. How to build it?

                      There are exceptions, but that's how I look at it. You can use all the mumbo jumbo terms you want, but stories are about sh!t happening and sh!t changing.
                      Sh!t happens, therefore the protagonist needs to do some sh!t, but along the way some more sh!t stands in his way forcing him to dig deep and get his sh!t together in order to overcome that sh!t and finally reach his sh!tty goal.



                      obscenity filter? fvck that sh!t.
                      Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue

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                      • #26
                        Re: Second act. How to build it?

                        I just don't see it as mumbo jumbo or sh!t happening.

                        I watch HUNGER GAMES and I see MATRIX.

                        Too much similarity for it to be random sh!t.
                        Story Structure 1
                        Story Structure 2
                        Story Structure 3

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                        • #27
                          Re: Second act. How to build it?

                          Who said random?

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                          • #28
                            Re: Second act. How to build it?

                            Originally posted by Bunker View Post
                            That's how I see it, at least.
                            There's not one way to break down any of these films, so it's not like I'm right and you're wrong or vice versa.

                            I tend not to use geographic markers for my acts, although I know some people think that way. Certainly the long action sequence that starts with the escape from the Well of Souls and ends with them getting on the boat is big enough to feel like an act end.

                            I also haven't broken down the movie lately, and don't know the timing of it that well. But if Indy's goal is to "find the ark before the Nazis do" (and I think there's a line to that effect) and that requires that they get the medallion, translate the medallion, find the map room, and dig up the well of souls that feels a lot like a second act to me. The midpoint might be (I'd have to double check) when Marion "dies" and the action switches from being around town to being in the desert itself.

                            One thing Spielberg does is disguise his act breaks really well. What's the first act break in Jaws? (I think it's probably the scene when Brody doesn't hire Quint.) In Jurassic Park? (I guess it's when they get in the cars to go on the tour). The act two ends in both those films are also not obvious (when the shark attacks after the USS Indiapolis Scene, and crossing the about-to-be-electrified fence).

                            But the quiet moment on the boat with Indy and Marion feels a lot like a "false victory" (or false defeat) - a very common mid-third act point. That does leave us with a longer-than-usual third act with three sequences (recover the ark from the truck, save Marion, watch the Nazis open the ark).

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                            • #29
                              Re: Second act. How to build it?

                              Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                              What's the first act break in Jaws? (I think it's probably the scene when Brody doesn't hire Quint.)
                              The first act break is when the melee on the beach is over, after Alex Kintner gets killed. From that point, straight into a town meeting I think, we're in Act II.

                              The second act kicks in after the event that launches the story (see my post about loglines). Off the cuff, Jaws is something like: "A small holiday resort is terrorised by a killer shark" or "when a holiday resort is terrorised by a killer shark, the beleagured chief of police must hunt it down". You get the idea.

                              Up to the point of Kintner's death, Brody suspected a shark but had no proof and no one believed him. We're in Act I - the setup, the characters and the dynamics of their relationships. Kintner's death catapults us into Act II. Everyone knows there's a shark now, it's not supposition anymore. Everyone knows something has to be done and so the story moves on to finding a solution, starting the hunt.

                              Act II''s start after an event that kickstart the story:

                              Marty McFly zapped back to 1955,
                              Stephanie finally seeing her Stepfather go apeshit, confirming her fears about him,
                              Kate Beckinsale investigating a hunch and getting the confirmation when she sees a murder in action is then attacked,
                              The attack on Sarah Conner in Tech Noir,
                              Tucker and Dale "confirmed" as killers after the chainsaw scene and the college kids plan to take them down,
                              McLane's fight with the security guard - and now knows something is wrong at the tower,
                              Columbus and Tallahasee ambushed by the girls in Zombieland and their plans altered,
                              and Alex Kintner getting munched.


                              Some may see Act I starting at each specific point of action - literally Kintner biting the big one, Marty driving into the scarecrow in Pessbody's field, or Kyle Reese blasting the CSM-101 through the window of Tech Noir but personally I see Act II as starting when these scenes are over - the immediate lull - hence Marty discovering Hill Valley, the town meeting in Jaws and the abandoned car park in Terminator. But either way, it's not too big a deal; we're there or thereabouts.
                              Last edited by SundownInRetreat; 04-04-2012, 09:17 AM.
                              M.A.G.A.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Second act. How to build it?

                                Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
                                Up to the point of Kintner's death, Brody suspected a shark but had no proof and no one believed him. We're in Act I - the setup, the characters and the dynamics of their relationships. Kintner's death catapults us into Act II. Everyone knows there's a shark now, it's not supposition anymore. Everyone knows something has to be done and so the story moves on to finding a solution, starting the hunt.
                                Here's the problem with this analysis.

                                (Again, emphasizing that whatever works for you is what works).

                                Brody thinks there's a shark after the first attack. He writes "shark attack" as the cause of death on the birth certificate. He tries to close the beaches and pull the kids out of the water.

                                He is overruled and browbeaten - in the same way he is through the film leading up to the midpoint (the attack in the estuary). If he had any doubts early, aren't they eliminated when Hooper examines the remains?

                                Everyone knows there's a shark? After the boaters catch a shark, everyone (particularly the mayor) is convinced there isn't a shark. In fact, only Hooper thinks there is still a shark. From the moment that shark is hauled up on deck, until the attack in the estuary, the town is in denial about there being a shark.


                                Marty McFly zapped back to 1955,
                                Disagree. If you define acts by actions - act 2 is Marty's attempt to get his parents back together. Him getting sent back in time interrupting the way his mom and dad meet is the inciting incident.

                                McLane's fight with the security guard - and now knows something is wrong at the tower,
                                I'm not sure which fight you mean here. I think it's when McClane finds the detonators. He is then trying to figure out what they're really up to, which he does right before the rooftop explosion scene.

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