Antagonist Lesson - Se7en

[NoirDigits]

So I recently received the collector's edition of Se7en, and I went through the little book it comes with.

Something I found very interesting was how they chose to establish the city itself as an antagonistic force, since John Doe is introduced so late. Such a brilliant concept. When I hear "Man vs Nature" or "Man vs Environment" my mind always goes to the extremes. Tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, etc. But in Se7en, it's much more subtle. The constant rain. The random crimes on the streets. The train shaking Mill's house. The city itself is an evil character. It was also incredibly insightful to keep the city nameless. They didn't want it to be a city that we've experienced before. Anyways, just a small little anecdote I wanted to share. It was a big wake up call for me as a writer. I need to take advantage of the dramatic potential the environment offers more often.

[Mr. Earth]

Re: Antagonist Lesson - Se7en

To go along with that, I recently watched Blade Runner again because I've never been a big fan of that movie, but always feel like I never gave it a chance. I still don't think it's all that great, but I think one of things that absolutely bothers me about that flick is that every scene is cluttered with stuff. And it's not cool stuff. It's oppressive, messy, ugly junk that makes me feel claustrophobic. Oddly enough, I always had the same issue when watching Malcolm in the Middle.

Maybe that doesn't rise to the level of an antagonist and it's certainly more of a director's call than a writer's, but it does show how an environment can really play a part, almost subconsciously, in a story.

[NoirDigits]

Re: Antagonist Lesson - Se7en

To go along with that, I recently watched Blade Runner again because I've never been a big fan of that movie, but always feel like I never gave it a chance. I still don't think it's all that great, but I think one of things that absolutely bothers me about that flick is that every scene is cluttered with stuff. And it's not cool stuff. It's oppressive, messy, ugly junk that makes me feel claustrophobic. Oddly enough, I always had the same issue when watching Malcolm in the Middle.

Maybe that doesn't rise to the level of an antagonist and it's certainly more of a director's call than a writer's, but it does show how an environment can really play a part, almost subconsciously, in a story.

I love Blade Runner and the oppressive, bleak, dense environments. Of course it's a matter of taste, though. I completely understand how off-putting it could be. It's tough to say how intentionally oppressive it is. I'm sure on some level, it must be. That's the nature of a dystopian future. But it's always a little hard to know how intentional/canon Ridley Scott's choices are. Harrison Ford thought one thing about his character, Ridley thought another. That doesn't even begin to address all of the different versions/cuts.

Disclaimer: I don't own Blade Runner and I've never listened to the commentaries or supplemental material.

[jonpiper]

Re: Antagonist Lesson - Se7en

I love Blade Runner and the oppressive, bleak, dense environments. Of course it's a matter of taste, though. I completely understand how off-putting it could be. It's tough to say how intentionally oppressive it is. I'm sure on some level, it must be. That's the nature of a dystopian future. But it's always a little hard to know how intentional/canon Ridley Scott's choices are. Harrison Ford thought one thing about his character, Ridley thought another. That doesn't even begin to address all of the different versions/cuts.

Disclaimer: I don't own Blade Runner and I've never listened to the commentaries or supplemental material.

I love the environment created for Blade Runner, too. But I don't think it works for every movie. Sometimes the environment ruins the film.

I wonder how much the screenplay implied or described and how responsible the set desigrers were.

[NoirDigits]

Re: Antagonist Lesson - Se7en

I love the environment created for Blade Runner, too. But I don't think it works for every movie. Sometimes the environment ruins the film.

I wonder how much the screenplay implied or described and how responsible the set desigrers were.

Jon, what are some films where you found the environment to be a hindrance? I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just curious.

[jonpiper]

Re: Antagonist Lesson - Se7en

Off the top of my head, I thought a couple of the Batman movie sets were so dark and heavy they detracted from the action and flow of the story.

[jonpiper]

Re: Antagonist Lesson - Se7en

Noir, I do agree with you that we "should take advantage of the dramatic potential the environment offers more often."

How much control over the environment do we have. It seems like the director has most of the control over the "environment."


I thought Moulin Rouge took place in a great environment that enhanced the story. The settings, the ferenzied action and cuts, etc. Others will probably disagree.

[SundownInRetreat]

Re: Antagonist Lesson - Se7en

So I recently received the collector's edition of Se7en, and I went through the little book it comes with.

Something I found very interesting was how they chose to establish the city itself as an antagonistic force, since John Doe is introduced so late. Such a brilliant concept. When I hear "Man vs Nature" or "Man vs Environment" my mind always goes to the extremes. Tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, etc. But in Se7en, it's much more subtle. The constant rain. The random crimes on the streets. The train shaking Mill's house. The city itself is an evil character. It was also incredibly insightful to keep the city nameless. They didn't want it to be a city that we've experienced before. Anyways, just a small little anecdote I wanted to share. It was a big wake up call for me as a writer. I need to take advantage of the dramatic potential the environment offers more often.

I always felt it was less about man vs nature and more about the world being an oppressive place. Murder, prostitution, drugs, rain, buildings etc - it surrounded everybody and was inescapable. That John Doe decided to kill in that city, to find all that sin, seemed to be a commentary on the whole environment and his murders, inevitable.

[goldmund]

Re: Antagonist Lesson - Se7en

Actually, Se7en and Blade Runner are as far apart as you can get regarding antagonists.

Ray Batty is a figure larger than life, someone you have to admire.

When John Doe finally appears in Se7en it's almost "who the hell is this bland civil servant?"
Which, of course, is brilliant. I wouldn't even say the city was the antagonist; it's like the detectives had to face the abstract idea of evil itself, instead of some deluded psycho.