Good guy with a bad past or bad guy with a noble heart?

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  • #16
    Re: Good guy with a bad past or bad guy with a noble heart?

    whatever works towards moving your story plot further... which character drives your story? and which one is capable of taking it to the end?

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    • #17
      Re: Good guy with a bad past or bad guy with a noble heart?

      Originally posted by Rhodi View Post
      I don't care as long as they WANT something and something is stopping them from getting it.
      Hear hear.

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      • #18
        Re: Good guy with a bad past or bad guy with a noble heart?

        Aren't we all just good guys with bad pasts and bad guys with noble hearts?
        On Twitter @DeadManSkipping

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        • #19
          Re: Good guy with a bad past or bad guy with a noble heart?

          How can you have a bad guy with a good heart? I always thought bad guy = self-centered SOB who uses people to get what he wants.

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          • #20
            Re: Good guy with a bad past or bad guy with a noble heart?

            Yes! Jayne is the best.

            Architeuthis, a dude who does "bad" things (killing, stealing, self-centered SOB-ing) for what he perceives as noble purposes (the greater good, saving his family, etc).
            Last edited by beewills; 08-30-2012, 11:44 AM. Reason: premature post!

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            • #21
              Re: Good guy with a bad past or bad guy with a noble heart?

              I prefer characters that are not generic.

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              • #22
                Re: Good guy with a bad past or bad guy with a noble heart?

                Originally posted by beewills View Post
                Which do you prefer in a protagonist? I love a bad a*s with a strong (and sometimes arbitrary) set of morals.
                I think that as soon as you start characterizing your hero as a "good guy" or a "bad guy" -- irrespective of anything else, you've made a mistake, because you've started to make a judgment about your character from an external perspective, rather than trying to understand what's driving him from inside -- which is how you should go about building a character.

                Virtually nobody whom other people would characterize as a "bad guy" would think of himself that way.

                And virtually nobody who "does" think of himself as bad, would likely be thought of as bad by other people.

                That's because the first thing you have to do if you're going to do really bad stuff is to construct some sort of internal world view that justifies your activities -- that makes you into the victim, that makes those you prey upon "fair game" or deserving of it, or less than human or they've simply been put here to serve your pleasure.

                Real bad guys aren't like Raskolnikov. They aren't, as a rule, haunted by their crimes.

                And that's the point. If your hero doesn't think of himself as a bad guy -- with a "golden heart" or a set of rules or whatever -- then neither should you.

                That's a judgment -- and that's a bad way to go about crafting a character.

                Somebody once said (and I'm afraid I don't remember who and thus I'm paraphrasing), that it's easy to write "good vs. evil" but that it's a much more powerful story when you write, "good vs. good" -- when both sides of a conflict have a strong and identifiable case.

                Now, obviously, not every story is like that and I'm not saying that they ought to be.

                But it's a very short step between archetypes and stereotypes and when we judge our characters in ways that they do not judge themselves -- good, bad, smart, stupid, brave, cowardly, etc. -- when we get in the habit of seeing them from the outside -- then we get into the habit of writing them from the outside.

                NMS

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                • #23
                  Re: Good guy with a bad past or bad guy with a noble heart?

                  One of my favorite movies is "The Player", adapted from Michael Tolkin's book and directed by Robert Altman, not only because it's seamless storytelling, biting commentary on Hollywood but because Tolkin, Altman and Tim Robbins managed to get me to root for a studio executive who murders a screenwriter.

                  As a writer, that's not an easy thing to do. And as it turns out, David Kahane the writer whom he kills isn't even the guy responsible for sending Griffin Mill death threats. He's just some struggling somewhat average writer with some anger at the system.

                  I should by all counts be empathizing with him. But no, I wanted Griffin Mill to get away with murder.

                  I think there are certain traits which make any character likable, intelligence and humor being two of the most effective. Griffin Mill knows how full of **** people in the movie industry are and when he suggests at lunch that his colleagues talk about something other than the movie business, it only takes a few seconds to realize just how funny a suggestion it is.

                  We also see his paranoia as Larry Levy, his professional nemesis, played by Peter Gallagher shadows him around town, showing up at parties, wooing his connections, and worming his way into his studio board room. We've all had enemies like this at some point.

                  Lines of empathy to a protagonist need not be established through showing noble traits. Survival instinct is something we can all understand.

                  We can root for Joe Gillis, a sell out hack screenwriter who moves into the house of a sugar momma, Norma Desmond, because its easy to understand his predicament.

                  Difference between Griffin Mill and Joe Gillis, however, is writers are supposed to have a conscience, a moral center, studio executives not so much. That's why it's fitting Mill gets away with murder. He's just a lion, killing his prey. His victory over Larry Levy, and over the justice system is somehow fitting and triumphant. Not in a legal, ethical or moral sense, but in a narrative sense.

                  The biggest crime a character can commit is not being true to themselves. A character who continues to live a lie instead of being who they really are at the end of a film is unsatisfying.

                  Mill realizes he does want the girl, the great job, the whole fairy tale and **** anyone who stands in his way.

                  Gillis has to die however for "Sunset Boulevard" to have any relevance. A sellout writer who realizes he's just not talented has to end up face down in a swimming pool on Sunset Boulevard. Otherwise what's the point of the movie.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Good guy with a bad past or bad guy with a noble heart?

                    it's in your story...

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