If a popular and beloved film is judged wanting by screenwring "rules"...

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  • #31
    Re: If a popular and beloved film is judged wanting by screenwring "rules"...

    There's always a problem. That's a rule.
    Story Structure 1
    Story Structure 2
    Story Structure 3

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    • #32
      Re: If a popular and beloved film is judged wanting by screenwring "rules"...

      "Pfft...rules. I'm a rocker. I don't care for rules." -- Homer Simpson

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      • #33
        Re: If a popular and beloved film is judged wanting by screenwring "rules"...

        Originally posted by karsten View Post
        Very interesting, and very much on point. To me, the ideal of retroactively criticizing a popular, much beloved and commercially successful musical film according to Pixar story rules is not fruitful. It's a bit like criticizing an orange for not being an apple.

        The Pixar films weren't flawed for straying from the musical rules, but the musical films, in turn, have not now somehow become retroactively flawed for not conforming to Pixar rules.
        Different styles fall out of trend in every art form. Some come back into trend, others don't often because new styles have been deemed superior to the predecessors.

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        • #34
          Re: If a popular and beloved film is judged wanting by screenwring "rules"...

          Originally posted by scriblerus View Post
          Answer: Citizen Kane. More recent? Dark Knight Rises (Either has two or has five, your choice)
          I'm not interested on what happens on what page, as 3rd act structure isn't that rigid.

          But, after one viewing:

          1st act: Batman has retired. But Gotham is in an increasing danger from Bane, so at the end of act 1 Batman returns, to fight Bane.

          The 2nd act is divided into 2 blocks, via midpoint. on the 1st half Batman looks for Bane and eventually fights him. And loses and gets imprisoned. Which leads to midpoint.

          The 2nd half of act 2 is Batman's imprisonment and slow recovery. At the same time, Bane grows more powerful than ever. Act 2 ends with Batman's escape from his prison. At the same time, a nuclear bomb is implanted in Gotham, starting a ticking clock. This leads to act 3 - The stakes are now higher than ever.

          Act 3 is about Batman collecting his allies together to fight Bane, the final fight itself, the disarmament of the bomb, and Batman's victory.

          ...Those are the *main* dramatic turnpoints of the plot. You could argue that it's a 4-act story, but it's been pretty common for decades now to divide act 2 into two separate blocks, via midpoint. (The most useful thing I ever learnt from screenwriting books). Despite it's twists and turns, act 2 is all about Batman having come back from retirement, re-gaining his previous powers, looking clues to win the too-powerful Bane, and constantly being confronted by Bane's forces. Batman isn't *ready* to beat Bane until the end of act 2.

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          • #35
            Re: If a popular and beloved film is judged wanting by screenwring "rules"...

            Originally posted by Richmond Weems View Post
            "Pfft...rules. I'm a rocker. I don't care for rules." -- Homer Simpson
            I'm a rocker, woah-ho
            I do as I feel as I say.
            I'm a rocker, woah-ho!
            And no one can take that away


            - Judas Priest

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjSNIRz7MJs
            M.A.G.A.

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            • #36
              Re: If a popular and beloved film is judged wanting by screenwring "rules"...

              The fact that so many great, classic films break the "rules" is perfect evidence for the fact that the Screenwriting Gurus are CON-MEN who have no idea what they're talking about.

              Cheers,

              B
              SIX-GUN GORILLA: LONG DAYS OF VENGEANCE.
              http://www.sixgungorilla.com/
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              sigpic
              "... (an) indie powerhouse of a book.- - AIN'T IT COOL NEWS

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              • #37
                Re: If a popular and beloved film is judged wanting by screenwring "rules"...

                Originally posted by Staircaseghost View Post
                What "popular and commercially successful" films don't have a three-act structure?

                Genuinely curious.
                See Antonia' Line. No structure, no antagonist, no opposing force, no goals except to live live. Best Oscar for Foreign Film, 1995.

                There are many, many others.

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                • #38
                  Re: If a popular and beloved film is judged wanting by screenwring "rules"...

                  A popular but wrong question (it is more important to ask the right questions to get good answers).

                  On the whole the search for aesthetic absolute ("rules") is a misapplication of a writer's energy. Every true work for art - must be judged primarily by its own laws. If it has no laws, or if it has laws that are incoherent, then it fails - usually - on that basis. These are the INNER LAWS of the work.

                  Most such supposed aesthetic absolute (rules) crumble under pressure as so many here have pointed out. Aesthetic universals do exist, but they exist at such a high level of abstration - and are better known as as a framework. They're better called OUTER LAWS.

                  You cannot judge the OUTER LAWS of screenwriting with the same criteria as the INNER LAWS of the work - the subject of much of this debate.

                  There is a place for the framework - human striving in the struggle for life. This kind of art is creativity applied to solve a problem - and here the general Hero's Journey / Campbellian structure works. But it is a mistake to promote these as the 'RULES' for all writing.

                  But much of art is reflective art - introspective art to make meaning out of existence - and here the outer laws don't work so well.

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                  • #39
                    Re: If a popular and beloved film is judged wanting by screenwring "rules"...

                    Originally posted by SirByron View Post
                    See Antonia' Line. No structure, no antagonist, no opposing force, no goals except to live live. Best Oscar for Foreign Film, 1995.

                    There are many, many others.
                    Wow, a cool 4.8 mil domestic gross? Sounds like exactly what I was asking for when I challenged the OP for a "popular and commercially successful" film!

                    Netflixing it now to confirm the lack of 3-act structure.

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