Opinions one and all, please :)

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  • #16
    Re: Opinions one and all, please

    Originally posted by nativeson View Post
    Do you think Cults are cinematic death? -- Now let me qualify that.

    Are they cinematic death if not revealed fully until Act III?

    This came from another great screenwriter website in which I read a list of things that never do well on screen, one of them being cults. Of course, I think 'Vikings' were also on that list Thanks in advance to anyone who weighs in
    First, you might find this post useful, it has a graphic breakdown of 300 scripts read by a professional reader. He recommended 8 of them. It's pretty informative.

    About your question. Possibly the problem is people use it as deus ex machina so often, the easy answer to why bad guys are doing what they are doing. If you have a diverse characters doing bad things and you want to connect them in Act 3, maybe you can find something more creative than a cult.
    wry

    The rule is the first fifteen pages should enthrall me, but truth is, I'm only giving you about 3-5 pages. ~ Hollywood Script Reader

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    • #17
      Re: Opinions one and all, please

      I'm piecing together a spec at the mo. When I suggested using a religious cult as backstory for the antagonist my reps said "feels hokey"

      Also most of the examples mentioned: MMMM, the master, Rosemary's baby etc are all either low budget or from another era of filmmaking movies. You can thrown into that pot Kill List -- again made for under a million dollars though.

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      • #18
        Re: Opinions one and all, please

        Originally posted by Mintclub View Post
        I'm piecing together a spec at the mo. When I suggested using a religious cult as backstory for the antagonist my reps said "feels hokey"

        Also most of the examples mentioned: MMMM, the master, Rosemary's baby etc are all either low budget or from another era of filmmaking movies. You can thrown into that pot Kill List -- again made for under a million dollars though.
        They do (seem hokey), and yet horror/religious themed end of the world scenarios -- Legion, Cabin in the Woods -- have done very well. I'm thinking along those lines with satanists, not necessarily run-o-the-mill robe-wearing cultists. Finding that path to 'make it work' is the key, now, isn't it

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        • #19
          Re: Opinions one and all, please

          I don't think you should ever let someone's opinion of what's hot or not (or dead) influence the spec stuff you write. If the story requires it, go for it.

          But I think the issue with cults might be of a technical issue than it is about how well it will do in the box office. Cults can be a kind of deus ex machina for a writer as in, "What motivated that character to do 'x"?" and the answer is always "The cult made him do it." This means a writer can make a character do any ridiculous thing and have the weak excuse that it was the cult that made them do it. That's kind of a cheat and not very interesting.
          On Twitter @DeadManSkipping

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          • #20
            Re: Opinions one and all, please

            What Mr. Earth said. Cult movies are like exorcist movies. There's the ONE OR TWO WAYS it's been done well before (in the case of cult movies, ROSEMARY'S BABY, MARCY MAY MARLENE, maybe BURN WITCH BURN, THE OMEN and RACE WITH THE DEVIL, and Koontz' novel THE SERVANTS OF TWILIGHT -- though it didn't make a good movie, the potential was there but blown). And then there's the hundred or so ways the subject has been done badly. Basically, everything else.

            You need a new angle, a twist, a fresh take, even to get off the ground with a cult movie, let alone come up with a good script. Another EXORCIST or ROSEMARY'S BABY? Don't set your sights too high. Get going with your own original approach and see what happens.

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            • #21
              Re: Opinions one and all, please

              Originally posted by Mr. Earth View Post
              But I think the issue with cults might be of a technical issue than it is about how well it will do in the box office. Cults can be a kind of deus ex machina for a writer as in, "What motivated that character to do 'x"?" and the answer is always "The cult made him do it." This means a writer can make a character do any ridiculous thing and have the weak excuse that it was the cult that made them do it. That's kind of a cheat and not very interesting.
              Look at this:

              Originally posted by wrytnow View Post
              About your question. Possibly the problem is people use it as deus ex machina so often, the easy answer to why bad guys are doing what they are doing. If you have a diverse characters doing bad things and you want to connect them in Act 3, maybe you can find something more creative than a cult.
              One more and we'll be able to extrapolate a curve.
              wry

              The rule is the first fifteen pages should enthrall me, but truth is, I'm only giving you about 3-5 pages. ~ Hollywood Script Reader

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              • #22
                Re: Opinions one and all, please

                Originally posted by Jon Jay View Post
                Maybe I'm being really stupid, but I genuinely don't get why anyone said this. It's like saying characters called Brad are cinematic death.
                I suspect this began with multiple studio execs saying the same thing, based on
                the box office of films with cults. History tends to repeat itself, so stuff like this gets shot down at the script stage.

                For over a decade they've used computers to analyze factors in screenplays to decide what has the best chance of making money before they greenlight a project. Maybe "cult" was one of the problem elements the computer spit out once?

                Bill
                Free Script Tips:
                http://www.scriptsecrets.net

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                • #23
                  Re: Opinions one and all, please

                  Originally posted by wrytnow View Post

                  One more and we'll be able to extrapolate a curve.
                  You actually expect me to read other people's posts on here before I put up my own gibberish? pish posh.


                  Actually, I don't know how I missed what you said, but apparently I completely agree with it.
                  On Twitter @DeadManSkipping

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                  • #24
                    Re: Opinions one and all, please

                    Thulsa Doom led a snake cult. Didn't hurt the movie one bit.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Opinions one and all, please

                      I'm wondering if the cult idea is not embraced as much in features because it's done to death on television drama series. Not only did/do Dick Wolf's franchise investigate some sort of cult every season, so did/does the CSI franchise and just about every crime-themed show you can think of, particularly THE MENTALIST, CRIMINAL MINDS, you name it. And then THE FOLLOWING was an entire season devoted to a cult.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Opinions one and all, please

                        Originally posted by nativeson View Post
                        Do you think Cults are cinematic death? -- Now let me qualify that.

                        Are they cinematic death if not revealed fully until Act III?
                        Personally I think it's because a lot of movies involving cults tend to be in the supernatural/horror mystery genre. Thus naturally they tend to be structured where the identity and motivation of the organization affecting the main conflict isn't revealed until late into the movie -- as with a lot of mysteries. Amongst the ones already mentioned, there's also THE SECRET WINDOW and BLACK DEATH.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Opinions one and all, please

                          I am a member of the Cults Are Cinematic Death Cult and this thread is infringing on our trademark. Also, we have one-size fits all robes. They're UPS'd upon paying cult membership fees so that no one shows up at a Black Mass feeling out of place, or underdressed. I also carry an extra one in the trunk of my car.

                          The only thing that is death is cliche. And that is a cliche.

                          If it's done so that like NMS pointed out it comes off as hokey, and or cliche, then it will be that. I'd suggest watching all the movies or TV episodes mentioned and then dig deep for something new.
                          #writinginaStarbucks #re-thinkingmyexistence #notanotherweaklogline #thinkingwhatwouldWilldo

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                          • #28
                            Re: Opinions one and all, please

                            Originally posted by wrytnow View Post
                            About your question. Possibly the problem is people use it as deus ex machina so often, the easy answer to why bad guys are doing what they are doing. If you have a diverse characters doing bad things and you want to connect them in Act 3, maybe you can find something more creative than a cult.
                            Not sure why you believe that a cult is an easy answer - could be as complex as you want.

                            Also I don't think it's less creative to use a cult. It all depends on the quality of the story and and writing.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Opinions one and all, please

                              Awesome response, thanks. Probably just have them wear pendants beneath their clothing (tatts, maybe?) and do horrible things, no robes.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Opinions one and all, please

                                I just watched the BBC documentary "America's Most Hated Family" about the Westboro Baptist Church, and it made me think of this thread.

                                I think cults are cinematic death because they tend to be portrayed stereotypically. You say "cult" and certain imagery pops into mind. Robes... bonfires... glassy-eyed Biblical quotations...

                                Anyone can write a robe-bonfire-animal sacrifice cult scene. Why? Because we've seen dozens of them. They're not new, and therefore they're not interesting.

                                The Westboro Baptist Church documentary, however, was interesting because all the people, especially the older children, seem so NORMAL. Even when they're discussing why "God Hates ***s", their voices and tone are pure conversational. They giggle, and laugh, and sing. They seem incredibly... nice?

                                They are disturbingly normal Americans in every way, except their ideology.

                                A cult is a belief structure that, on a certain level, makes complete sense. To them, their belief is just as practical as any die-hard Christian, Muslim, Democrat, Republican, USC Football fan, etc. Westboro doesn't consider itself a cult. Neither did People's Temple or Heaven's Gate or FLDS.

                                I think cults are lame in most scripts because the writer hasn't dedicated themselves to understanding the foundational belief structure. It's just "We like Satan, so we're going to sacrifice you."

                                But if a cult is portrayed in some fresh way, with an original purpose and belief structure, I think it could work fine in a script.

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