Advice Act III/Outlines

[Deni]

Hello everyone, I hope some of you can help with this. I'm very close to signing with a manager and I need to work on a few weaknesses in my writing.

I desperately need advice on a more structured approach to screenwriting.

Here's my problem. I have the idea for the script and I just start writing and then when I get to act iii, I get stuck because then I need to formulate a decent payoff for the ending.

I guess I would describe my technique as very organic?

I have attempted to use a outline on so many occasions but I get frustrated because my script takes a different turn from what's on my outline.

I would appreciate any advice that anyone can give me. How do I work on this?

[Jon Jay]

Re: Advice Act III/Outlines

I think we'd probably need more details to provide any advice.

You say you try outlining but your third act ends up going away from you - are we talking complete reversal here (i.e. they don't get married, the President actually dies etc) or just that the ending stays the same but happens differently?

I know it's a bit of a cliché but I personally can't write a word until I know the ending. It may be vague, the logistics might be fuzzy - but usually it's pretty solid, in terms of scenes, imagery, dialogue even. I have to know what happens at the end in order to write what leads to the end. I genuinely don't know how you couldn't do that. You need to have a narrative coherence, which is inevitably expressed in the close of the film. So everything coming before that close needs to somehow contribute to that idea. Otherwise you have The Godfather ending with a spaceship landing in Sicily, or When Harry Met Sally ending with a harrowing rape scene.

Like I said, it would be interesting to hear a little more about your process, or maybe a specific example of where this has happened. My fear is that you're doing something that, let's face it, all writers have done - you're starting scripts when you haven't fully formed the story, because scriptwriting is easier than story-writing. Throwing characters onto a page, getting them to talk, do stuff, act in crazy ways - it feels very productive and is far more fun than the agony of trying to plot out a story beat by beat.

In terms of advice re: outlines, I can only offer my process as an example that works for me.

I have a basic idea of the story, brainstorm ideas, make lots of notes. Decide the ending. Then start breaking down the story a half at a time. So I start with the middle - what happens in the middle of the story, taking it in a new direction? Then I take each of those halves and do the same thing, each time figuring out what the major change or development is for that block. Do it once more and I'm down to 8 'blocks' - sequences, reels.

I can then look and think, right - each of these is about 12-15 pages. Does that work for pace? Are some of the blocks emptier than others? Is there a sense of momentum, or does it sag? Does each one build on what's happened before? Does each end by posing the question what happens next?

Once I'm happy with the blocks, I make a numbered list for each sequence, which is basically the scenes that have to happen. By this stage I know the when/where of the scenes, so this is pretty threadbare; occasionally I'll throw in detail where I've had a light-bulb moment (i.e. 'This is where she mentions allergy to nuts, which pays off at end'). I allocate a page to each sequence, but make the numbering continuous across pages, so by the end I have 8-pages of A4, something like 50 bullet points. That's the story. I then work through it, writing up the scenes, crossing them out as I go. Tend to write in order, but sometimes will skip ahead if I really have a buzz about that particular scene. Getting the sequence/scene list sorted takes weeks; writing the pages happens fairly quickly.

Hope some of this helps. Others may have far better systems - this just happens to work for me.

JJ.

[Deni]

Re: Advice Act III/Outlines

I think we'd probably need more details to provide any advice.

You say you try outlining but your third act ends up going away from you - are we talking complete reversal here (i.e. they don't get married, the President actually dies etc) or just that the ending stays the same but happens differently?

I know it's a bit of a cliché but I personally can't write a word until I know the ending. It may be vague, the logistics might be fuzzy - but usually it's pretty solid, in terms of scenes, imagery, dialogue even. I have to know what happens at the end in order to write what leads to the end. I genuinely don't know how you couldn't do that. You need to have a narrative coherence, which is inevitably expressed in the close of the film. So everything coming before that close needs to somehow contribute to that idea. Otherwise you have The Godfather ending with a spaceship landing in Sicily, or When Harry Met Sally ending with a harrowing rape scene.

Like I said, it would be interesting to hear a little more about your process, or maybe a specific example of where this has happened. My fear is that you're doing something that, let's face it, all writers have done - you're starting scripts when you haven't fully formed the story, because scriptwriting is easier than story-writing. Throwing characters onto a page, getting them to talk, do stuff, act in crazy ways - it feels very productive and is far more fun than the agony of trying to plot out a story beat by beat.

In terms of advice re: outlines, I can only offer my process as an example that works for me.

I have a basic idea of the story, brainstorm ideas, make lots of notes. Decide the ending. Then start breaking down the story a half at a time. So I start with the middle - what happens in the middle of the story, taking it in a new direction? Then I take each of those halves and do the same thing, each time figuring out what the major change or development is for that block. Do it once more and I'm down to 8 'blocks' - sequences, reels.

I can then look and think, right - each of these is about 12-15 pages. Does that work for pace? Are some of the blocks emptier than others? Is there a sense of momentum, or does it sag? Does each one build on what's happened before? Does each end by posing the question what happens next?

Once I'm happy with the blocks, I make a numbered list for each sequence, which is basically the scenes that have to happen. By this stage I know the when/where of the scenes, so this is pretty threadbare; occasionally I'll throw in detail where I've had a light-bulb moment (i.e. 'This is where she mentions allergy to nuts, which pays off at end'). I allocate a page to each sequence, but make the numbering continuous across pages, so by the end I have 8-pages of A4, something like 50 bullet points. That's the story. I then work through it, writing up the scenes, crossing them out as I go. Tend to write in order, but sometimes will skip ahead if I really have a buzz about that particular scene. Getting the sequence/scene list sorted takes weeks; writing the pages happens fairly quickly.

Hope some of this helps. Others may have far better systems - this just happens to work for me.

JJ.

Jon,

Thank you so much for your reply this is exactly what I needed to hear.

This is my process:

I have the idea for the movie and I just start writing it as I see it unfold in my head as if I'm watching a movie. I have a great idea of the first and second acts and I write them out fluidly but once I get to the third act, I stall a bit. I have to pull back and brainstorm how it will end, even if I have a vague idea. This chews up time for me, where I feel it should be more fluid.

I'm understanding from your reply that I'm doing things a bit backwards (only without the outline). Only recently have I begun to think that I need to start focusing on the third act first.

With regard to outlining. Firstly, I don't know how to properly outline my scripts. So I just do bullet points but when I start to write my script, I'll get a better idea for a scene that might take the entire script into a whole new direction, example: The president dies and they don't get married after all.

I hope this helps you understand my process which is a hot mess and I really need to find a more structures way of writing.

I am percolating your process with regard to the outline which I'm finding extremely helpful and I can't thank you enough for your reply. I really really appreciate it.

D.

[medavidson]

Re: Advice Act III/Outlines

Hello everyone, I hope some of you can help with this. I'm very close to signing with a manager and I need to work on a few weaknesses in my writing.

I desperately need advice on a more structured approach to screenwriting.

Here's my problem. I have the idea for the script and I just start writing and then when I get to act iii, I get stuck because then I need to formulate a decent payoff for the ending.

I guess I would describe my technique as very organic?

I have attempted to use a outline on so many occasions but I get frustrated because my script takes a different turn from what's on my outline.

I would appreciate any advice that anyone can give me. How do I work on this?

Have you finished anything ever? The ability to finish and the ability to outline / create a 3 act structure are different animals.

Mark

[nmstevens]

Re: Advice Act III/Outlines

Jon,

Thank you so much for your reply this is exactly what I needed to hear.

This is my process:

I have the idea for the movie and I just start writing it as I see it unfold in my head as if I'm watching a movie. I have a great idea of the first and second acts and I write them out fluidly but once I get to the third act, I stall a bit. I have to pull back and brainstorm how it will end, even if I have a vague idea. This chews up time for me, where I feel it should be more fluid.

I'm understanding from your reply that I'm doing things a bit backwards (only without the outline). Only recently have I begun to think that I need to start focusing on the third act first.

With regard to outlining. Firstly, I don't know how to properly outline my scripts. So I just do bullet points but when I start to write my script, I'll get a better idea for a scene that might take the entire script into a whole new direction, example: The president dies and they don't get married after all.

I hope this helps you understand my process which is a hot mess and I really need to find a more structures way of writing.

I am percolating your process with regard to the outline which I'm finding extremely helpful and I can't thank you enough for your reply. I really really appreciate it.

D.

What I've often heard said, and I tend to agree with it is that when you have a problem in Act Three, you need to look for your solution in Act One.

That is because a story is sort of like a thematic arrow that hits its target in Act Three from a bow that's drawn in Act One.

If you're unsure of the target or little things are sending it off course, that is usually because it has not been properly aimed to start with -- or worse yet, you have simply pointed your bow up in the air, closed your eyes and fired, not quite knowing where it will go, but hoping that it will land someplace interesting.

And sometimes, just maybe, it will. Maybe it will land on the bullseye on a target somewhere. Or strike buried treasure. Or take down a deer -- and everyone will applaud, thinking that was your intention all along.

But it really does sort of work out better if you know what you're aiming at.

And to know how a movie ends, you need to know *why* a movie has the end that it does. That means knowing what your movie is about.

Knowing what your movie is about not only tells you where the arrow of the story will land, but informs you about the entire trajectory of its journey.

Stories are about characters acting to solve a problem within a narrative space and that problem solving moves along two parallel tracks -- physical/external and thematic/internal. That is, there's what's going on outside -- the car chases or space battles or your kid has cancer or whatever it is -- and then there's whatever is that's going on *inside* your protagonist that has to do with that person (usually one person but it can be more) making key moral choices. External conflict -- internal conflict. And the two realms mirror one another -- the realm of the physical battle and the realm of the internal thematic struggle such that, if you've sort of done it right, the two coalesce into a single point in the story.

This where you find yourself in the third act -- physical/external conflict and thematic/internal conflict meet up, and the resolution of one resolves the other.

So you need to figure that out -- what is the underlying theme that is driving your protagonist. What is that has to change about him, if he has to change, or what is it that he needs to hold on to, to keep from changing as the events of the story will try to change him -- and how is that internal stuff reflected by the external action?

And how do you then bring that process -- external/internal to an apparently insoluble place -- and then resolve it in some way?

That is your third act resolution. That is the place toward which the arrow of every story is aimed from the first act.

NMS

[Joaneasley]

Re: Advice Act III/Outlines

Excellent replies. If you are close to signing with a manager, you must be doing some things right. I'm guessing those are coming up with creative story beats and knowing what a movie scene should feel like. The part you were missing is the organization of the whole. NMS explained the whole very well. If you start with that in your outlining, then you can use your creativity to get your characters to do what they need to do to get to where they need to be next. And in the end, you'll have a story that builds up to what you meant it to build to. You'll be working to earn the ending your story needed all along.

[Timmy]

Re: Advice Act III/Outlines

I desperately need advice on a more structured approach to screenwriting.

Here's my problem. I have the idea for the script and I just start writing and then when I get to act iii, I get stuck because then I need to formulate a decent payoff for the ending.

You can frame it around a return - return home, return to face the monster, return to turn...etc.

[wrytnow]

Re: Advice Act III/Outlines

Maybe this graphic would be helpful. Kind of an overall gestalt of structure/plot and character arc and how they relate.

[ducky1288]

Re: Advice Act III/Outlines

I've heard of some people who start with the ending and work their way back (not necessarily writing it in that order).

I usually know two things before I write -- how my story starts & how it ends -- it's the middle where I have to slog through.

When you outline just outline the ending as well, know how you want to end it before actually writing before you end up too deep to make major changes.

Don't be afraid to stray from your outline. My outline is most of the time a reminder of where I want to go but it's not written in stone. You'll think of better ideas on the way as you write.

[Deni]

Re: Advice Act III/Outlines

Have you finished anything ever? The ability to finish and the ability to outline / create a 3 act structure are different animals.

Mark

Sure have.

I have five scripts that I've completed.

[Deni]

Re: Advice Act III/Outlines

Excellent replies. If you are close to signing with a manager, you must be doing some things right. I'm guessing those are coming up with creative story beats and knowing what a movie scene should feel like. The part you were missing is the organization of the whole. NMS explained the whole very well. If you start with that in your outlining, then you can use your creativity to get your characters to do what they need to do to get to where they need to be next. And in the end, you'll have a story that builds up to what you meant it to build to. You'll be working to earn the ending your story needed all along.

Joaneasley, thanks. You've hit the mark. Although my process is not very organized and rudimentary, it does work. I just feel that I need to learn to be a bit more structured and learn what works for others and incorporate that in my work. I'm enjoying all the responses.

[Deni]

Re: Advice Act III/Outlines

Maybe this graphic would be helpful. Kind of an overall gestalt of structure/plot and character arc and how they relate.

Thanks! Will check it out.

D.

[Deni]

Re: Advice Act III/Outlines

I've heard of some people who start with the ending and work their way back (not necessarily writing it in that order).

I usually know two things before I write -- how my story starts & how it ends -- it's the middle where I have to slog through.

Yeah, i have no problem with Act i and ii. I think what happens is that I know that Act iii has to pay off. That's where you need to "shock and awe" so to speak and grab the audience while tying up all the loose ends and I feel the pressure. Maybe that's why I stall a bit and then I find myself putting my work down for a week or two then thinking hard on how to structure the pay off.

I think the key, judging from the responses (yours included) I should, no matter how long it takes, focus on structuring my outline first and foremost. I'm usually just anxious to start writing and getting it out there.

Perhaps it's impatience? From now on, I'll just focus more on the outline and setting up my beats but first and foremost, focusing on how it will end and nailing that beforehand.

When you outline just outline the ending as well, know how you want to end it before actually writing before you end up too deep to make major changes.

Don't be afraid to stray from your outline. My outline is most of the time a reminder of where I want to go but it's not written in stone. You'll think of better ideas on the way as you write.

Thank you so much, this has been helpful.

[Deni]

Re: Advice Act III/Outlines

What I've often heard said, and I tend to agree with it is that when you have a problem in Act Three, you need to look for your solution in Act One.

This is a very good point.

Stories are about characters acting to solve a problem within a narrative space and that problem solving moves along two parallel tracks -- physical/external and thematic/internal. That is, there's what's going on outside -- the car chases or space battles or your kid has cancer or whatever it is -- and then there's whatever is that's going on *inside* your protagonist that has to do with that person (usually one person but it can be more) making key moral choices. External conflict -- internal conflict. And the two realms mirror one another -- the realm of the physical battle and the realm of the internal thematic struggle such that, if you've sort of done it right, the two coalesce into a single point in the story.

This where you find yourself in the third act -- physical/external conflict and thematic/internal conflict meet up, and the resolution of one resolves the other.

So you need to figure that out -- what is the underlying theme that is driving your protagonist. What is that has to change about him, if he has to change, or what is it that he needs to hold on to, to keep from changing as the events of the story will try to change him -- and how is that internal stuff reflected by the external action?

And how do you then bring that process -- external/internal to an apparently insoluble place -- and then resolve it in some way?

That is your third act resolution. That is the place toward which the arrow of every story is aimed from the first act.

NMS

These are things that I definitely think about but the way you worded it here is a keeper. I have printed it out and pinned it. Thank you.

[Deni]

Re: Advice Act III/Outlines

Everyone's responses have been really helpful. Just wanted to thank you all for taking the time and giving me your input.

If anyone else has anything to offer this novice, please keep it coming. I have five scripts under my belt but I still have a lot to learn.

Much appreciated.