Resources for writing ensemble (multi-protagonist) screenplays?

[nmstevens]

Re: Resources for writing ensemble (multi-protagonist) screenplays?

I'm not sure we'd call them "multiple protagonist," either. I suppose because, to me, protagonist indicates someone contending, if that makes sense. I don't disagree with your comments, but I think we get to the point where a film simply doesn't have protagonists.

I'd agree that the movies I indicated don't have protagonists in the traditional sense.

And everyone will just have to forgive me for not having seen the Breakfast Club.

And I have an even more shocking confession. I've seen part of Weird Science, a few minutes of Ferris Bueller, and part of Planes, Trains and Automobiles -- that's the complete extent of my immersion in the John Hughes oeuvre.

I'm not exactly sure what I was watching during the eighties, but I'm afraid that whatever audience John Hughes was aiming his movies at, I was definitely not part of that demographic.

Maybe if I'd grown up watching them, I'd really love John Hughes movies the way I love movies that I grew up watching. But I didn't, and I don't and honestly, there are so many other movies out there that, if given the chance, I'd rather watch -- no offense -- the Breakfast Club is just way the hell down on my list of things to do with two hours of my life.

NMS

[wrytnow]

Re: Resources for writing ensemble (multi-protagonist) screenplays?

Maybe if I'd grown up watching them, I'd really love John Hughes movies the way I love movies that I grew up watching. But I didn't, and I don't and honestly, there are so many other movies out there that, if given the chance, I'd rather watch -- no offense -- the Breakfast Club is just way the hell down on my list of things to do with two hours of my life.

NMS

Just FYI, I don't care what you watch and I've never seen any of his other films. I will say this about TBC: it's a great example to learn from in terms of writing "contained drama." If you watch this and then watch 12 Angry Men, the Henry Fonda, you really will admire what Hughes did here. But I have no investment in you personally actually doing that.

[Eric Boellner]

Re: Resources for writing ensemble (multi-protagonist) screenplays?

Movies where a group of people are brought together because of an event: being trapped in a deadly labyrinth in Cube, attending/hosting/working at a party in an English country house in Gosford Park.

Oh man, I forgot about Gosford Park. Such a good film, and a terrific ensemble. Also a solid entry in the "contained drama" category Wrytnow mentioned.

[Dr. Vergerus]

Re: Resources for writing ensemble (multi-protagonist) screenplays?

Oh man, I forgot about Gosford Park. Such a good film, and a terrific ensemble. Also a solid entry in the "contained drama" category Wrytnow mentioned.

I don't know, it doesn't feel that "contained" to me, with the action moving through different rooms and floors of the house, and different groups of people. When I think of a "contained" story I think of something with tighter boundaries.

But yes, it's a great film and a great cast.

[Eric Boellner]

Re: Resources for writing ensemble (multi-protagonist) screenplays?

I don't know, it doesn't feel that "contained" to me, with the action moving through different rooms and floors of the house, and different groups of people. When I think of a "contained" story I think of something with tighter boundaries.

Good point. 12 Angry Men is certainly much more rigid in its confines than GP. I think when people mention contained dramas or thrillers, I just tend to think of films that take place in one location, with however many characters, and which don't leave that location for the majority of the film. For instance, I generally think of The Cook, the Thief, His Wife, and Her Lover when I think about good contained dramas - even though the story occasionally strays into the alley behind the restaurant, and then into the lover's library, if I recall correctly - almost the entire film takes place inside this restaurant, with different people coming and going, but the principle cast always hanging around and doing their business.

[Ronaldinho]

Re: Resources for writing ensemble (multi-protagonist) screenplays?

I think that's less a "problem" to me than a "state of being," we all share. The movie explores that, in this case, with adolescents.

BUt here's the thing:

That is the thing that changes, over the course of the movie, resulting in them achieving a happy ending. That pretty much defines the problem of the movie.

Whether it's a state of being for all of us or not, it is the problem of the movie. Part of why the movie is so good is that it's about something universal.

[wrytnow]

Re: Resources for writing ensemble (multi-protagonist) screenplays?

BUt here's the thing:

That is the thing that changes, over the course of the movie, resulting in them achieving a happy ending. That pretty much defines the problem of the movie.

Whether it's a state of being for all of us or not, it is the problem of the movie. Part of why the movie is so good is that it's about something universal.

I don't disagree, I just don't think it's the kind of "problem" nmstevens referred to here:

I think every story (at least every traditional narrative) has, at its heart, a problem that needs to be solved.

IMO, many stories don't fall into the "traditional narrative" mode. To me, TBC doesn't have this structure at all. But then I don't agree that the "problem" if it did exist, was resolved. That problem is never resolved. We just grow in understanding. (And we fall back to old ways.) There wasn't a conclusion, detention was just over.

[wrytnow]

Re: Resources for writing ensemble (multi-protagonist) screenplays?

Good point. 12 Angry Men is certainly much more rigid in its confines than GP. I think when people mention contained dramas or thrillers, I just tend to think of films that take place in one location, with however many characters, and which don't leave that location for the majority of the film. For instance, I generally think of The Cook, the Thief, His Wife, and Her Lover when I think about good contained dramas - even though the story occasionally strays into the alley behind the restaurant, and then into the lover's library, if I recall correctly - almost the entire film takes place inside this restaurant, with different people coming and going, but the principle cast always hanging around and doing their business.

This^^

I think one of the great contained dramas was Flight of the Phoenix (original) and it mostly takes place outside.

[Ronaldinho]

Re: Resources for writing ensemble (multi-protagonist) screenplays?

I find TBC to be incredibly classically structured. And I think your comment that the issues aren't resolved are clearly contradicted by the last five minutes of the film. I'd like to humbly suggest that you watch it again.

[Eric Boellner]

Re: Resources for writing ensemble (multi-protagonist) screenplays?

I find TBC to be incredibly classically structured.

Where's the inciting incident?

Not picking a fight here, just playing devil's advocate. I don't personally think TBC is classically structured. It focuses on two characters interacting, then a third entering the discussion, then switches to the third and the second character interacting, then the first says something again and the fourth will chime in to the ire of the second, and so on for the rest of the film. It's pretty much just five kids thrown in the ring with each other and Mr Vernon as the occasional referee.

I'm sure you can make it fit into some classical structure theory, whether it's Campbell's Hero Journey, Snyder's Beat Sheet, or Harmon's Story Circles. But I think if you look at the actual elements that make up a structured film like Star Wars or All the President's Men, those are largely ignored in Hughes' seminal film. Things just happen, and people learn from them. It's a character study, and any journey the characters go on is internalized more than anything.

Like I said, I'm happy to be shown otherwise. I enjoy discussions like this, and I think you'll probably make excellent points in rebuttal, and that will make it a discussion worth having.

[Eric Boellner]

Re: Resources for writing ensemble (multi-protagonist) screenplays?

To clarify, I know that the film follows the standard arc: "Character wants something [to be accepted], character acts upon that desire [arguing, picking fights w/ each other], character achieves goal in a way that changes him/her [general acceptance of each other and of themselves]."

But on a more specific level, I'm interested to see how TBC fits into the mold of a classical structure.

[Ronaldinho]

Re: Resources for writing ensemble (multi-protagonist) screenplays?

Where's the inciting incident?

Well, you and I disagree about the definition of "classically structured" if you're going to say it has to match Star Wars beat for beat. (Not what you said, but I want to be clear that that's not what classically structured means. Classical structure isn't a formula).

The inciting incident is the kids being sent to detention. (Or them arriving, if you prefer). Their status quo is their unhappy home situations/overall lives. This is a very common approach to storytelling, where the status quo is laid out over the course of the story. Alien, for example does the same thing: it doesn't set up a bunch of astronauts and then have them receive a message which launches the story. The receipt of the message is the first scene of hte movie.

The "non-classical" thing about it is the multiple protagonists. Beyond that ...

The second act shows the characters dealing with the external aspects of the problem - both Vernon and each other. (Although you talk about Mr Vernon being the referee, but that's really not what happens. He's a very minor antagonist, relatively speaking. Notice how the kids band together against him almost instantly). The end of the second act takes to them to a place where they realize that they actually like each other, and then we have the scene that's already been mentioned, the "what about Monday" scene, which pushes them to undergo deeper change.

Through the characters trying to solve their want (to get through the day as painlessly as possible) they're forced to confront aspects of themselves (their unhappiness with their lives), and change those aspects, in order to get a happy ending.

But I think if you look at the actual elements that make up a structured film like Star Wars or All the President's Men, those are largely ignored in Hughes' seminal film. Things just happen, and people learn from them. It's a character study, and any journey the characters go on is internalized more than anything.

Films don't have to wear their plot points on their sleeves in order to actually have them. Of course, TBC isn't exactly subtle about some of its plot points, either: the end of the second act, everybody getting along, is a big musical montage of everybody high.

[Eric Boellner]

Re: Resources for writing ensemble (multi-protagonist) screenplays?

Well, you and I disagree about the definition of "classically structured" if you're going to say it has to match Star Wars beat for beat. (Not what you said, but I want to be clear that that's not what classically structured means. Classical structure isn't a formula).

The inciting incident is the kids being sent to detention. (Or them arriving, if you prefer). Their status quo is their unhappy home situations/overall lives. This is a very common approach to storytelling, where the status quo is laid out over the course of the story. Alien, for example does the same thing: it doesn't set up a bunch of astronauts and then have them receive a message which launches the story. The receipt of the message is the first scene of hte movie.

The "non-classical" thing about it is the multiple protagonists. Beyond that ...

The second act shows the characters dealing with the external aspects of the problem - both Vernon and each other. (Although you talk about Mr Vernon being the referee, but that's really not what happens. He's a very minor antagonist, relatively speaking. Notice how the kids band together against him almost instantly). The end of the second act takes to them to a place where they realize that they actually like each other, and then we have the scene that's already been mentioned, the "what about Monday" scene, which pushes them to undergo deeper change.

Through the characters trying to solve their want (to get through the day as painlessly as possible) they're forced to confront aspects of themselves (their unhappiness with their lives), and change those aspects, in order to get a happy ending.



Films don't have to wear their plot points on their sleeves in order to actually have them. Of course, TBC isn't exactly subtle about some of its plot points, either: the end of the second act, everybody getting along, is a big musical montage of everybody high.

Haha, I figured you'd change my opinion on the subject, and you did. Well made points, sir. I think you said it best here:

Films don't have to wear their plot points on their sleeves in order to actually have them.

I've admittedly only watched TBC a few times, and the last time was a half-attentive TV viewing about a month back. But it had struck me as being non-traditional in its structure, though you've shown me that Hughes is simply not as cut-and-dry about it (most of the time).

Thanks for the good post.

[Timmy]

Re: Resources for writing ensemble (multi-protagonist) screenplays?

What are some other theories/guidelines for writing these scripts?

Hero's Journey or Ensemble Journey, the process is the same.

What was the problem in The Breakfast Club?

To get out of jail (detention).

I find TBC to be incredibly classically structured.

Agree.

[Clint Hill]

Re: Resources for writing ensemble (multi-protagonist) screenplays?

"The Outsiders" is a film that uses multiple protagonists. There is a group that as a whole comprises the Protagonist and a group that as a whole comprises the Antagonist.

Different characters in each group take on different facets of character that would otherwise reveal themselves in a traditional 2-character Protagonist/Antagonist screenplay. In keeping with human behavior, there are leaders in each group who garner more (screenplay) attention.

The multi-protagonist screenplay may not be simple or easy to write, perhaps, but "The Breakfast Club" , "The Big Chill," and "The Outsiders" prove the merits of multi-protagonist stories by currying favor with audiences.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086066/