How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

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  • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

    I'm a semi amateur writer, not exactly a beginner but not pro either. Have never read STC or any screenwriting book too, but after reading this whole thread, I can summarize two irrefutable problems of STC are that:

    1. It sells itself as the "last screenwriting book you'll ever need" when it clearly isn't and shouldn't.

    2. Dictating specific page numbers to hit for certain events is ridiculous.

    Anybody thinks otherwise?

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    • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

      Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
      I already explained how the way the question was asked was flawed. In detail, if I recall.
      No you didn't. You made a lot of obfuscating, blustering noise but you didn't come close to explaining how Jeff Lowell's question was supposedly flawed.

      When Jeff Lowell corrected your flawed assumptions, you didn't even have the common decency to acknowledge that you were wrong.

      So, pardon me if I don't have much respect for your flawed recollections and your fantasy of a detailed rebuttal.

      After all -- what you wrote (and didn't write) is still in this thread. You might want to go back and read it, in detail.
      "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

      Comment


      • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

        Originally posted by madworld View Post
        Per this discussion and for those interested, check out this short chapter Howard Suber wrote on Aristolatry, in his book "The Power of Film":

        https://books.google.com/books?id=yM...olatry&f=false
        He makes his point. After all everything does have a beginning, a middle and an end.

        Thanks for putting that up.
        "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

        Comment


        • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

          Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
          Just to add fuel to the fire --

          Technically, Snyder believes his beats are key to a "successful" movie -- hence the contrast between Legally Blonde and Momento. So, of all the 160 writers in your writing group, how many of their scripts have been successful? If the percentage is 5%, one could argue NOT using the Snyder beat sheet is the reason their scripts weren't successful.
          A script that gets made is a successful one. Everyone that was questioned has credits to their name which is better than most of us.

          How about the thousands of scripts that rely on STC etc? Do you think anything other than an extreme minority sell?

          At the end of the day a good structure is very important but it isn't what sells.

          And if your criteria for success is box office of course it's hard to hit those heights with a film that doesn't feature Iron Man.

          Comment


          • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

            Originally posted by Yaso View Post

            About the character's STRATEGY though: That's everything your MC does to reach his goal. It can be instinctive or intellectual. It can be simple or complex. It can be highly focused or totally vague, but without action nothing will happen in your movie.
            I'm just really curious. Strategy, as : for the protag to reach his main goal, or the strategies he uses along the way, as it's getting harder and harder to reach the said goal, or strategies he plans on mini objectives/scenes?

            As a sold-neverbeenproduced-scriptwriter, if this could interest anyone, I don't use any templates. I start with the world where I want to set my story. Then flawed characters. I decide if they're heal or not in the end. Then I create characters with opposite agendas. I introduce them. makes it harder and harder (emotionally and physically) for the lead to reach its goal. Then he/she reaches it, or not.

            And that's all. No "mentors", "Dark night of the soul" ,"fun and play". But then I'm sure a few of my scripts could be seen as "save he cat-ty".

            I know plenty of people go by : introduction, conflicts, resolution. I go by introduction, complications, resolution. Worked for me.

            On a side note, I've never seen a producer or director talking about save the cat or anything like it. it's always about characters, characters' logic, the story.

            On another side note, writing is hard. I'm amazed (not ironically) on the sheer volume of writing on the topic. Man, you guys gotta love writing a lot! I do my 5 pages a day and I'm done, you guys have to write like a book at every post!
            The question is : Do you work in the business?

            Comment


            • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

              Originally posted by StoryWriter View Post
              No you didn't. You made a lot of obfuscating, blustering noise but you didn't come close to explaining how Jeff Lowell's question was supposedly flawed.

              When Jeff Lowell corrected your flawed assumptions, you didn't even have the common decency to acknowledge that you were wrong.

              So, pardon me if I don't have much respect for your flawed recollections and your fantasy of a detailed rebuttal.

              After all -- what you wrote (and didn't write) is still in this thread. You might want to go back and read it, in detail.
              I would, but that would mean spending a few seconds on an effort suggested by someone as tiresome as yourself, and frankly, I'm not interested.
              Last edited by UpandComing; 11-20-2015, 04:47 AM.
              "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

              Comment


              • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                Originally posted by Takeshiro View Post
                I'm just really curious. Strategy, as : for the protag to reach his main goal, or the strategies he uses along the way, as it's getting harder and harder to reach the said goal, or strategies he plans on mini objectives/scenes?
                The main character doesn't necessarily need to plan his steps consciously. That happens for example in caper/heist films, which have the most complex strategies of all stories. The original strategy almost always fails, then the team has to improvise.

                You can break down the overall strategy into tactics and operations, just as you can break down the overall goal into sequence and scene objectives.

                Comment


                • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                  Save The Cat for Novelists http://www.savethecat.com/novelwriti...-consultations

                  I guess his legacy lives on.
                  Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                  Comment


                  • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                    Check out Nick Hornby's article in the LA Times Envelope section from Thurs Nov 19 about adapting the novel Brooklyn into a film that is now being talked about for an Oscar. Hornby talks about knowing what page "screenwriting experts" say something is supposed to happen, and how he does have some things happening in those general areas, but not the things one would expect, because the shape of the story is unusual and confounding. It's worth reading for people on all sides of this discussion.

                    Comment


                    • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                      Some people see the pattern of ONE particular type of story and tell everyone this is the way to write every story. This has more to do with taste of the teacher than with anything else.

                      Always remember: Not all stories should be the social drama. Not all stories should be the quest of the warrior. Not all stories should be the buddy romance.

                      However, there are common elements that all stories share. Those are what make them stories in the first place. Only the way they are using those elements differ, albeit sometimes in extreme ways:

                      In a love story, the antagonist is the lover, in a horror story a monster, in an action story a nemesis. In a family drama, the antagonist is a family member, usually the most powerful one. In a desaster film, the antagonist is the situation (meteor shower, climate change etc.).

                      Comment


                      • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                        Labeling events to page numbers or sequences is futile. I find it hard to believe there's a book out there recommending this.

                        This Cat book says a thematic scene belongs on page 5. The problem with that is, you're creating a scene from the outside in instead of the inside out. A writers muse tells them while writing, 'hey, these actions by the hero are a perfect example of my overall theme'.

                        Anyone trying to strictly follow a paradigm is going to make up actions for the sole purpose of proving the theme. There is a big difference between the two. One is going to read natural with causation and truth and emotion. the other is going to read like a lecture, and be cold, and therefor not make its point.

                        I think it was Billy Wilder that said, once he uncovered what his theme was in a story, he made sure it was represented in every scene.

                        That tells me two things. One, it's ok to start a script without a theme in mind, and two Theme is something that is discovered by the writer once they stand back and objectively look at character choices under pressure.

                        Stories are like a vast desert. You can easily get lost and never find your way out. Some people feel more comfortable with a road map. If you follow the road map like gospel, you miss the journey of self discovery. That's where the story lies. Deep inside of you and no author has a road map to there.

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                        • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                          In lieu of a dead horse...

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                          • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                            Since STC relies heavily on Joseph Campbell's hero's journey monomyth, I did some poking around this morning and found he had his critics, too, and their criticism echos criticism of STC. On Campbell from Wiki:

                            In narratology and comparative mythology, the monomyth, or the hero's journey, is the common template of a broad category of tales that involve a hero who goes on an adventure, and in a decisive crisis wins a victory, and then comes home changed or transformed. The concept was introduced by Joseph Campbell....Critics argue that the concept is too broad or general to be of much usefulness in comparative mythology.
                            I found that interesting. Another thing that occurred to me during this discussion, here -- both Campbell and Snyder focus on the mythic male/masculine journey. The male protag hears the call then leaves all he knows (including parents, wife and children) to set out on a mostly solo journey to slay dragons real or metaphorical.

                            This monomyth excludes the female/feminine journey. And when you consider these ancient myths developed thousands of years ago when women were essentially chattel, it's no wonder women in Campbell's template are either one of two extremes -- the goddess who teaches the protag to love, or the temptress who seduces the hero to stray from his path to redemption.

                            One film that I think was refreshing because it was symbolic of one type of woman's journey is the theme in Maleficence. So maybe there's hope that other female journeys will be explored in film.
                            Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                            Comment


                            • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                              Female myth stories just weren't in the focus of storytellers for a long time. They are slowly coming back now: MALEFICENT, GRAVITY, INSIDE OUT, FROZEN, AVATAR (male and female) ...

                              I wouldn't waste too much thought on some out-of-context statement on Wikipedia, that doesn't even have a source.

                              Comment


                              • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                                I think we're reaching the end of this, maybe not. But here is a process. Not to beginning a work but beginning a path as a writer.

                                The reason I'm writing about this process is because I know there is someone out there reading this right now who still has a lot more questions than answers. He (or she) has been told by people that he has an aptitude for screenwriting. But he hasn't broken in yet. He can't figure out for the life of himself why it - his path - hasn't worked. Early on his diligence felt like progress. He studied everything, read the books, followed all the rules.

                                No we sees, no cut to:, no long passages or dialogue or flashbacks or voiceover. He had a quote-unquote marketable concept. His last screenplay hit every beat right on time and people often comment on how they loved the writing but for some reason, that's where it ends.

                                He did everything Save The Cat promised him and the script just didn't come together. He rereads it a month or so later and feels hollow inside because now he realizes his work reads too sanitized and too derivative.

                                At the time, he could have swore he did everything right.

                                So he's sitting in his office. His wife is over his back. She touches his shoulder after he just got that 6 on the Blacklist or Screen Shark or whatever the latest thing is, and she tries to pick him up and she's can't. He has to pick himself up.

                                A couple weeks later, with one foot on his career already out the door, he says fvck "the rules.- He remembers that old idea his friends told him not to write because it wasn't marketable enough and he decides to crack open the laptop.

                                He writes what he deeply needs to write - with three "we sees- on the first page alone. A first act that runs long. A character or two he didn't consolidate with another. He writes with reckless abandon but make no mistake, there is something to this. He can feel it. He is more connected to this work than ever before. He is living and breathing through his hero's eyes. He wakes up one day with a screenplay born out of this fire.

                                What happens after that?

                                Here is the spoiler. He gets the rep, the sale, gets the meetings and opportunities. And truthfully, that's when the real lessons begin, because now he is in a big deep pool of professionals with credits. He has others trying to shape him into their little molds. He has to learn how to be a professional writer, how to work with others but still stay true to himself, how to get up after he stumbles and how most importantly, he will always be learning.

                                The heat from his first thing has long since fizzled. He will feel like he captured lightening in a bottle once. At one or many points in time, he will have to remind himself of what got him there in the first place, and do it again. These are lessons the books will not teach you. You have to live them.

                                And it is a very sweet process too, because he gets perspective on the truly important things - and that the rigid structure we're all talking about doesn't echo life.

                                So my challenge to that interested party out there who might be thinking all this sounds familiar is that even though the book makes you feel a little more comfortable now - My suggestion is to *be uncomfortable*.

                                Your greatest works will come when you shed the patina of industry panic and just hit that page with everything. That is the script everyone wants to read.

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