How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

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  • #61
    Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

    Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
    I

    Jeff, if you were nice enough to give someone a read and the script took 40 pages to really set up the major dramatic question that will carry the rest of the story. You're feedback would be a slap on the back commending them on their lack of caring for page numbers? I'm sure you'd tell them things could be more compact, the same points could be made with less words.

    25% through the story the audience has expectations as to where they will be in a story like this. I think an agent or manager would also.
    Craig once yelled at me for making this argument on DD, but I stand by it:

    I think some of these so-called rules originated as a way to talk about this stuff with less-experienced writers, as a way to teach it.

    Teaching almost always involves simplification and abstraction. Stuff like "the story needs to start quickly" and "you don't need to set everything up" are hard to teach. "Give me an inciting incident by page 15 at the latest" is easy to teach.

    This happens in every other field. If I'm teaching physics - momentum and force and gravity - I abstract out air resistance and friction and so on until the students have the concept.

    The problem is, in physics, at some point you run an actual experiment and say, "Wait, this feather is actually falling slower than the lead ball, even the the law of gravity says it shouldn't. WTF?" And you start working the messiness of the real world back in. And you can't argue with it. The Space-X guys couldn't say "you just don't understand what I'm trying to do!" when the Falcon-1 blew up after launch. It was abundantly clear that they did something wrong.

    In screenwriting, less-experienced writers can, and do, argue with it. "I need that set-up," or, worse, "That's just the way I see it." So the abstract and complex - and, for good writers, largely intuitive (albeit with an intuition born of a ton of hard work) - understanding of pacing gets abstracted down.

    And the truth is that most young writers do start things too slow, and too slow in a way that would be helped by hacking a bunch of stuff out. So the over-abstracted lesson gets reinforced.

    That being said, I do think that kind of thing is a valuable teaching tool - and the real problem is when writers who are still learning don't realize that it's just a teaching tool. Teachers can do better, too, by emphasizing practical examples. e.g., if I show you a bunch of films, normally the inciting incident will fall around or shortly after minute ten. But if I include Alien in the list, you'll notice that there's one film where the II is literally the very first thing that happens onscreen.

    But just because something is a valuable teaching tool doesn't mean that it's something that is relevant to people doing professional-quality work.

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    • #62
      Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

      Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
      Craig once yelled at me for making this argument on DD, but I stand by it:

      I think some of these so-called rules originated as a way to talk about this stuff with less-experienced writers, as a way to teach it.

      Teaching almost always involves simplification and abstraction. Stuff like "the story needs to start quickly" and "you don't need to set everything up" are hard to teach. "Give me an inciting incident by page 15 at the latest" is easy to teach.

      This happens in every other field. If I'm teaching physics - momentum and force and gravity - I abstract out air resistance and friction and so on until the students have the concept.

      The problem is, in physics, at some point you run an actual experiment and say, "Wait, this feather is actually falling slower than the lead ball, even the the law of gravity says it shouldn't. WTF?" And you start working the messiness of the real world back in. And you can't argue with it. The Space-X guys couldn't say "you just don't understand what I'm trying to do!" when the Falcon-1 blew up after launch. It was abundantly clear that they did something wrong.

      In screenwriting, less-experienced writers can, and do, argue with it. "I need that set-up," or, worse, "That's just the way I see it." So the abstract and complex - and, for good writers, largely intuitive (albeit with an intuition born of a ton of hard work) - understanding of pacing gets abstracted down.

      And the truth is that most young writers do start things too slow, and too slow in a way that would be helped by hacking a bunch of stuff out. So the over-abstracted lesson gets reinforced.

      That being said, I do think that kind of thing is a valuable teaching tool - and the real problem is when writers who are still learning don't realize that it's just a teaching tool. Teachers can do better, too, by emphasizing practical examples. e.g., if I show you a bunch of films, normally the inciting incident will fall around or shortly after minute ten. But if I include Alien in the list, you'll notice that there's one film where the II is literally the very first thing that happens onscreen.

      But just because something is a valuable teaching tool doesn't mean that it's something that is relevant to people doing professional-quality work.
      I think in well written scripts "seams" like the inciting incident are not obvious. In fact, I've seen arguments over what the II or MP in a particular script is because they were not obvious. And that's a sign of good writing.

      Example -- what's the inciting incident in the Godfather? I just checked the script and found that by page 15 -- way beyond the 10 minute mark -- the wedding is still in full swing. In this film the inciting incident happens toward the end of Act 1 and the protag, Michael, doesn't even know it happened.

      You mention teachers need to do a better job at teaching this stuff. I disagree. I think teachers need to do a better job at weeding out people who are not teachable and don't have the talent to go the distance.

      Yes, talent. It's the elephant in the room, isn't it? Just because someone wants to be a professional writer, just because they have the desire, doesn't mean they have the talent to achieve that goal.

      Why is it I've yet to see a how-to book start with, "First you must determine if you have a talent for writing." This prerequisite is omitted lulling the reader into thinking it's a level playing field and once you understand the STC structure you're well on your way to being a paid screenwriter. Jeff's Lego analogy really crystallizes this perfectly.

      In fact, I'm going to boldly posit that structure is much further down on the list of what a new screenwriter must learn to do. In fact, as I said in another thread a while back, I think, as lovers of movies -- starting when we watched Disney films as toddlers -- we've already internalized structure.
      Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

        Originally posted by sc111 View Post
        I think in well written scripts "seams" like the inciting incident are not obvious. In fact, I've seen arguments over what the II or MP in a particular script is because they were not obvious. And that's a sign of good writing.

        Example -- what's the inciting incident in the Godfather? I just checked the script and found that by page 15 -- way beyond the 10 minute mark -- the wedding is still in full swing. In this film the inciting incident happens toward the end of Act 1 and the protag, Michael, doesn't even know it happened.

        You mention teachers need to do a better job at teaching this stuff. I disagree. I think teachers need to do a better job at weeding out people who are not teachable and don't have the talent to go the distance.

        Yes, talent. It's the elephant in the room, isn't it? Just because someone wants to be a professional writer, just because they have the desire, doesn't mean they have the talent to achieve that goal.

        Why is it I've yet to see a how-to book start with, "First you must determine if you have a talent for writing." This prerequisite is omitted lulling the reader into thinking it's a level playing field and once you understand the STC structure you're well on your way to being a paid screenwriter. Jeff's Lego analogy really crystallizes this perfectly.

        In fact, I'm going to boldly posit that structure is much further down on the list of what a new screenwriter must learn to do. In fact, as I said in another thread a while back, I think, as lovers of movies -- starting when we watched Disney films as toddlers -- we've already internalized structure.
        Unfortunately, until they develop a blood test to identify screenwriting talent, we have to go through the traditional grind to find out if we have it or not
        TimeStorm & Blurred Vision Book info & blog: https://stormingtime.com//

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

          Originally posted by sc111 View Post
          Yes, talent. It's the elephant in the room, isn't it? Just because someone wants to be a professional writer, just because they have the desire, doesn't mean they have the talent to achieve that goal.

          Why is it I've yet to see a how-to book start with, "First you must determine if you have a talent for writing." This prerequisite is omitted lulling the reader into thinking it's a level playing field and once you understand the STC structure you're well on your way to being a paid screenwriter. Jeff's Lego analogy really crystallizes this perfectly.

          In fact, I'm going to boldly posit that structure is much further down on the list of what a new screenwriter must learn to do. In fact, as I said in another thread a while back, I think, as lovers of movies -- starting when we watched Disney films as toddlers -- we've already internalized structure.
          Well, I largely agree with what you say. Structure is emphasized because of how teachable it is - not because it's the most important thing.

          And I don't know what the solution is. Even if schools like USC try to have tough standards (although the production program, when I attended, largely didn't look at portfolios when it came to admission. They did care a lot about GRE scores; the writing program may have been better) there are schools like NYFA which literally take anyone who can pay. Screenwriting books sell enough that companies keep pumping them out (although it doesn't seem like their writers make much money).

          It's also tough position. If you read something in the script pages forum, it feels really inappropriate to say "You might not want to think about this professionally" to any but the weakest possible pages. Even saying stuff that might be euphemistically read that way ("you really need to work a lot harder at this," or "maybe put these pages down for a while and work on something else") are pretty awkward. And who really wants to take on the mantle of telling somebody they shouldn't do this for a living - anybody who did so would invariably be wrong on occasion, and would come off like a huge a-hole.

          I don't know any sort of real solution, unfortunately, as to how to fix that problem.

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

            Originally posted by sc111 View Post
            I think in well written scripts "seams" like the inciting incident are not obvious. In fact, I've seen arguments over what the II or MP in a particular script is because they were not obvious. And that's a sign of good writing.

            Example -- what's the inciting incident in the Godfather? I just checked the script and found that by page 15 -- way beyond the 10 minute mark -- the wedding is still in full swing. In this film the inciting incident happens toward the end of Act 1 and the protag, Michael, doesn't even know it happened.
            The Godfather is a three-hour movie, which means, if we are going by the much-debated STC guidelines, that all the various benchmarks (inciting incident, midpoint, etc.) will happen later than in a film of average length.

            Originally posted by sc111 View Post
            Yes, talent. It's the elephant in the room, isn't it? Just because someone wants to be a professional writer, just because they have the desire, doesn't mean they have the talent to achieve that goal.
            I tend to fall into the "talent is overrated" camp. Screenwriting is only about a hundred years old, so it's hard to argue that it's in the genes or whatever.

            Originally posted by sc111 View Post
            In fact, I'm going to boldly posit that structure is much further down on the list of what a new screenwriter must learn to do. In fact, as I said in another thread a while back, I think, as lovers of movies -- starting when we watched Disney films as toddlers -- we've already internalized structure.
            Your last statement contradicts the running argument in this thread that structure is just this illusion being sold to novice screenwriters. Yes, movie watchers do internalize structure. I think some pros internalize it so well that they aren't even consciously aware of it, to the point that they've convinced themselves that their scripts are just a lot of random cool stuff going on. That's why these structure threads so often turn into a bunch of people sounding like Robin Williams in Dead Poets Society. "Screenplays aren't about thought! Simply open up your soul and allow the Song of the Universe to flow through you!"

            When you watch a film, your impression of it is guided by your accumulated impressions of all the other films you've watched. When a movie goes off the track, you take note of it even if you can't articulate what went wrong. The average moviegoer doesn't sit in the theater complaining that the All Is Lost moment didn't happen, but when you watch a film like Rambo, where Stallone basically blows people away for 90 minutes with minimal effort, you feel its absence.

            Blake Snyder didn't write STC to herald a new dawn in screenwriting methods. The book is based on his observations of existing movies. If you watch movies with STC in mind, you notice that, for better or worse, intentionally or not, many Hollywood films do follow it fairly closely. By the way, Taken does have an All Is Lost moment, albeit a truncated one; it's when he gets captured and chained to the pipe.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

              Originally posted by MrZero View Post
              By the way, Taken does have an All Is Lost moment, albeit a truncated one; it's when he gets captured and chained to the pipe.
              I mentioned there was no "dark night of the soul" moment. Which is:

              Dark Night of the Soul - The main character hits bottom, and wallows in hopelessness. The Why hast thou forsaken me, Lord? moment. Mourning the loss of what has "died- - the dream, the goal, the mentor character, the love of your life, etc. But, you must fall completely before you can pick yourself back up and try again.
              It doesn't fit his character, and I'm glad the filmmakers didn't try to wedge it in.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                Originally posted by EdFury View Post
                I once had a production company ask me for a "Save the Cat beat sheet" before they'd read a script, even though they liked the logline. I emailed back, "You won't like this script, but thank you for your interest."

                I have never written a script thinking about any of these things. My one mission: write a great story that people would like to see. I have a script going in April that has the inciting incident on page 37. A question of who exactly the protagonist is until late in the second act when he dies. And a main character who has no arc. And I've never had people more excited about a script and less eager to change these things. Write a great story that moves you. Screw the rest of it. That's what gets you noticed. Not being one of the same.
                THIS... Things like structural/narrative formulas are largely peddled by people trying to sell you a book or a screenwriting course (and no, the irony that I myself have a screenwriting course out there is not lost on me). "Write a great story that moves you. Screw the rest it." IMHO - truer words have not been said.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                  Originally posted by grumpywriter View Post
                  THIS... Things like structural/narrative formulas are largely peddled by people trying to sell you a book or a screenwriting course (and no, the irony that I myself have a screenwriting course out there is not lost on me). "Write a great story that moves you. Screw the rest it." IMHO - truer words have not been said.
                  Production companies want to know if there's a story in your script before reading it. That doesn't have anything to do with Blake Snyder.

                  Otherwise, without a story, they will end up with something similar as SPECTRE. You can read the E-Mails between writers and execs online ... they are going round and round in circles and the questions they are asking aren't even remotely answered in the movie.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                    Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                    And the truth is that most young writers do start things too slow, and too slow in a way that would be helped by hacking a bunch of stuff out. So the over-abstracted lesson gets reinforced.

                    That being said, I do think that kind of thing is a valuable teaching tool - and the real problem is when writers who are still learning don't realize that it's just a teaching tool. Teachers can do better, too, by emphasizing practical examples. e.g., if I show you a bunch of films, normally the inciting incident will fall around or shortly after minute ten. But if I include Alien in the list, you'll notice that there's one film where the II is literally the very first thing that happens onscreen.

                    But just because something is a valuable teaching tool doesn't mean that it's something that is relevant to people doing professional-quality work.
                    Right. So I offer a pacing tool that I've found useful to someone I assumed was a "young writer" (someone not in the industry) -- someone who asked for "specific techniques" (i.e., tools) -- while in no way implying that the tool is a strict rule for professional-quality work (no "hard-and-fast rules", I said) -- and suddenly there's this mass hysteria. Makes a lot of sense.
                    "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                      Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
                      Right. So I offer a pacing tool that I've found useful to someone I assumed was a "young writer" (someone not in the industry) -- someone who asked for "specific techniques" (i.e., tools) -- while in no way implying that the tool is a strict rule for professional-quality work (no "hard-and-fast rules", I said) -- and suddenly there's this mass hysteria. Makes a lot of sense.
                      What mass hysteria lol? Just a discussion. I hope you don't feel I'm coming down on you, it's just a different point of view. I apologize if I've offended you too, not my intent at all.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                        Originally posted by Yaso View Post
                        Production companies want to know if there's a story in your script before reading it. That doesn't have anything to do with Blake Snyder.

                        Otherwise, without a story, they will end up with something similar as SPECTRE. You can read the E-Mails between writers and execs online ... they are going round and round in circles and the questions they are asking aren't even remotely answered in the movie.
                        Who said no story? I feel like some of you might be skimming the posts. No formula does not mean no story.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                          Originally posted by madworld View Post
                          What mass hysteria lol? Just a discussion. I hope you don't feel I'm coming down on you, it's just a different point of view. I apologize if I've offended you too, not my intent at all.
                          I think the collective overreaction to my post from the soapbox crew can easily be described as "mass hysteria"
                          "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                            So someone apologizes if he offended you and you call him part of a "soapbox crew?"

                            No idea why people disagreeing with you is setting you off so much. I'm with madworld - I'm not seeing any mass hysteric reaction to your post.

                            I join in in these discussions once in awhile because I think they're interesting to have - there definitely are principles of drama that are helpful to study. But when do those principles cross over into an unhelpful prescription?

                            OP has been here for three years and has five hundred plus posts. I see someone like that, I feel like it's okay to maybe not just hand him the bike with training wheels. YMMV.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                              Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                              So someone apologizes if he offended you and you call him part of a "soapbox crew?"
                              I'm not sure why madworld apologized. I've never once called him out specifically, and my last post didn't either.

                              Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                              No idea why people disagreeing with you is setting you off so much. I'm with madworld - I'm not seeing any mass hysteric reaction to your post.

                              I join in in these discussions once in awhile because I think they're interesting to have - there definitely are principles of drama that are helpful to study. But when do those principles cross over into an unhelpful prescription?
                              When I say mass hysteria, I'm not referring to anger or even disagreement. I'm referring to a lot of people (thus "mass") overreacting (thus "hysteria") to a post I made. Hope that's clear.

                              Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                              OP has been here for three years and has five hundred plus posts. I see someone like that, I feel like it's okay to maybe not just hand him the bike with training wheels. YMMV.
                              Right. So I guess my three + years and over 900 posts on DDP must make me a pro. Like I said, he asked for "specific techniques", so I assumed he was looking for specific tools that other DDPers have found useful. I offered a suggestion that was "useful" for me; trying to equate that to some kind of rule I was putting forth is either disingenuous or "overreacting".
                              "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                                Originally posted by madworld View Post
                                Who said no story? I feel like some of you might be skimming the posts. No formula does not mean no story.
                                A beat sheet is not a formula.

                                It tells you the essentials of what happens in the story.

                                I'm sorry, but if you can't give me your story beats on one page, you can't tell a story.

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