How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

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  • #91
    Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

    Originally posted by Yaso View Post
    I grew up watching sports. That doesn't mean I can score a touch down.
    Analyze touchdowns all you want but when stuff goes awry on the field, you have to have the instinct.

    Are you going to monday morning QB your way to the top?

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2...ory?id=6299428

    "So how, then, do they make their decisions? Turns out, every pass play is a pure demonstration of human feeling. Scientists have in recent years discovered that emotions, which are often dismissed as primitive and unreliable, can in fact reflect a vast amount of information processing. In many instances, our feelings are capable of responding to things we're not even aware of, noticing details we don't register on a conscious level."

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    • #92
      Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

      I'm not denying that instinct is important for a writer. I'm denying that you gain that instinct by passively absorbing movies.

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      • #93
        Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

        Originally posted by Yaso View Post
        I'm not denying that instinct is important for a writer. I'm denying that you gain that instinct by passively absorbing movies.
        But you gain it reading books? I'm trying to follow here.

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        • #94
          Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

          Originally posted by bjamin View Post
          there's a guy on youtube, I subscribe to his channel, who has been posting updates on his adventures in writing a screenplay for the last month or two. From fade in to fade out he posts how he's doing, where he's at in the process what page number he's on....so on so forth -- it's actually pretty effin' cool. But I geek on things like that (anyhoo). But it's torture seeing him bend over backwards trying to get beats to land on certain pages. To me, it seems like it is hindering him. I am all for using beats you pick up from books but trying to force them to land on certain page numbers is a fool's errand. It complicates the process in a way that doesn't need complicating. If the script hasn't moved into the 2nd act by page 40, and it's a 100 page script, that's a huge problem. But other than that, maybe the midpoint lands on page 55 or 60 (out of 100 pages) that doesn't kill a well told story for me. Beats are good to help develop the story line, but anyone who tells you they must land on page whatever prolly hasn't sold a script.
          Oh, wow. I just watched this one (link below) of the guy you mention above. He's telling viewers that if their catalyst doesn't fall on page 12 a-la STC rules then they need to look closely at it and consider rewriting (unless they have a really-really good reason to justify missing the page STC page 12 rule).

          Then he bemoans how his catalyst lands on page 10 and how he's looking at "why" he's missed the page-12 boat. Not only has he been inhibited by the ridiculous STC rules he's now spreading those rules and inhibiting others.
          This is the damage STC has left in its wake.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_szwro2Znc
          Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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          • #95
            Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

            Originally posted by madworld View Post
            But you gain it reading books? I'm trying to follow here.
            I would argue that some people do.

            Honestly, you'll find these exact same arguments in any artistic/creative field. I have seen them over and over again across different disciplines. The truth is, everyone's going to go about learning these things in different ways because everyone has a different mix of technical and artistic instincts when it comes to this stuff. Some people can probably "feel" structure on an instinctive level without any additional training at all, while other people reverse-engineer it from beat sheets. Most are somewhere in the middle.

            The problem comes in telling people they MUST use one particular technique (such as telling people they absolutely HAVE TO have different beats fall on these exact page numbers) rather than saying, "Here's something that might work, try it out and see what you think."

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            • #96
              Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

              Originally posted by omjs View Post
              I would argue that some people do.

              Honestly, you'll find these exact same arguments in any artistic/creative field. I have seen them over and over again across different disciplines. The truth is, everyone's going to go about learning these things in different ways because everyone has a different mix of technical and artistic instincts when it comes to this stuff. Some people can probably "feel" structure on an instinctive level without any additional training at all, while other people reverse-engineer it from beat sheets. Most are somewhere in the middle.

              The problem comes in telling people they MUST use one particular technique (such as telling people they absolutely HAVE TO have different beats fall on these exact page numbers) rather than saying, "Here's something that might work, try it out and see what you think."
              I agree completely.

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              • #97
                Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                I just watched Crimson Peak the other day and felt the pacing was slow, but it wasn't because it was ill-structured. It was multiple factors. The protag was bland, the story was predictable, the ghosts weren't scary (nothing was), it was cliché etc etc. There's probably a dozen more factors I can't even figure out.

                I'm starting to think that, like "what makes a great script?", great pacing is also one of those unanswerable questions.
                I'm never wrong. Reality is just stubborn.

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                • #98
                  Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                  Screenwriting is like any other craft in the world. You need to learn the notes, before you can successfully play the violine in a concert. No one in their right mind would assume that you can play the violine just because you watched so many concerts in your life. On the other hand, most people do assume that the material a screenwriter works with are his words. Wrong! It's all about STORY.

                  The most important thing that a good story needs to have is STRUCTURE. Structure means "what events happen in what order" and it's the way you express the meaning of your story. Without a sound structure, the script won't make much sense.

                  There's no need to re-invent the wheel though. You don't need to re-invent notes and staves to make music. Find a mentor or a teacher. Some intelligent people have laid out different approaches to screenwriting beginners can follow. Some of those, we outgrow quickly, like Syd Field's three act model. And bad models can be spotted by the mere fact that they are not applicable to all stories (If you want to write myth stories, keep using the Hero's journey by all means).

                  What I wanted to say is, that we mostly learn by imitation. You can read and analyze screenplays. You can watch and analyze movies. But those are ACTIVE endeavours. Just because I watched movies as a kid, that doesn't help me in any way to write a script. It probably gives me a fascination for this wonderful art form, which can be a good start, but I have to put in the work, the sweat, tears and blood.

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                  • #99
                    Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                    Originally posted by Yaso View Post
                    Screenwriting is like any other craft in the world. You need to learn the notes, before you can successfully play the violine in a concert. No one in their right mind would assume that you can play the violine just because you watched so many concerts in your life. On the other hand, most people do assume that the material a screenwriter works with are his words. Wrong! It's all about STORY.

                    The most important thing that a good story needs to have is STRUCTURE. Structure means "what events happen in what order" and it's the way you express the meaning of your story. Without a sound structure, the script won't make much sense.

                    There's no need to re-invent the wheel though. You don't need to re-invent notes and staves to make music. Find a mentor or a teacher. Some intelligent people have laid out different approaches to screenwriting beginners can follow. Some of those, we outgrow quickly, like Syd Field's three act model. And bad models can be spotted by the mere fact that they are not applicable to all stories (If you want to write myth stories, keep using the Hero's journey by all means).

                    What I wanted to say is, that we mostly learn by imitation. You can read and analyze screenplays. You can watch and analyze movies. But those are ACTIVE endeavours. Just because I watched movies as a kid, that doesn't help me in any way to write a script. It probably gives me a fascination for this wonderful art form, which can be a good start, but I have to put in the work, the sweat, tears and blood.


                    The other day I was listening to this great interview Howard Stern had with Billy Joel and was pretty fascinated to hear him talk about his childhood and how initially when he began piano lessons he didn't know any of the Mozart that he was being taught in class. But he would play at home and his mother *thought* she was listening to Mozart because Joel was playing all of the notes his own way. Pretty remarkable.

                    Structure is important, but it's not everything or even close to everything. Structure cannot teach you about human nature.

                    So I think there's also some room for creativity, some room for exploration and that involves sometimes not just emulating but giving yourself the freedom to find unique things. Doing that is what allows you to find your own voice versus just copying someone else's. Yes a lot of people start that way. But a lot of people, I would argue most, never get past it.

                    For you to say what Tony Gilroy says is bullshit just floors me. Academy Award nominee Tony Gilroy. Or Jeff Lowell, who has sold 20 pilots! Do you realize the magnitude of that?

                    Look analyzing is fine but you have to ask yourself, are you an analyst or an artist?

                    There are analysts aplenty. Gilroy is not one of them. His experience trumps your speculation.

                    If you read the message behind what the "soapbox crew" (of professionals I might add) are saying, it is that screenplays are not formulas. Problems exist outside formulas that cannot be solved that way. The hard work, the blood and especially the tears do exist, but don't confound analyzing the works of artist with being an artist.

                    Now let me add so there is no mistake, I respect your passion and you and exploring as a writer. It's an interesting discussion. But to reiterate my point for the OP, pacing has a lot of intuitiveness to it. That is my technique. There is no right or wrong but maybe give that a shot, see what happens.

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                    • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                      Every amateur is writing with hopes of that next script being the one that opens a door to a manager or agent, or maybe even gets sold. I think that's a good thing, keeps your excitement level high and it seems to you that carrot you are chasing is close, real close. It's also a double edged sword because you know in your heart that you must incorporate important story telling elements like pacing, and character, and plot, reversals, act climaxes. You often find yourself reading a draft that really lacks a lot of those principles and now you want to try and cram them in so they can be there.

                      Good writers have good story telling guts. Their instincts rely on that gut feeling about how the pacing should work for this type of story, How are they gonna portray the heroes weaknesses against setting, character, plot? What are those propelling events that raise the story to another level?

                      Screenwriting is like golf in that it is all in the approach. You have to stand the right distance away from the ball, head down, lined up right, steady back swing, turn with the hips, swing plane inside out, break wrists at the ball, follow through and turn body to target. You must approach it correctly and if you don't the swing will be broken and flawed.

                      You have to approach screenwriting in the proper way and some of that is personal writer to writer as to what they actually to prepare, but some of it is universal too.

                      If you're writing stuff and getting eliminated in the first cur of contests, not hearing back from queries, etc. I think you have to admit to yourself that your approach is off. The writers who will be the working writers naturally mature their approach from script to script and by like the fourth one they can really pull it off. Most amateurs hit a wall.

                      You go down to your local golf course and you'll see guys who can get their score down in the 80s with an ugly swing, he can hold his own on the golf course but he'll never make any money at it, cause the guys you watch on TV have a flawless approach.

                      When they say there is no formula in screenwriting they are wrong. There's no formula to story. There is definitely a formula in how you approach a concept and turn it into a viable script. You are going to do the same process over and over, especially if it is producing good work. Once you find that formula, you stick with it.

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                      • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                        "Structure is important, but it's not everything or even close to everything. Structure cannot teach you about human nature. "

                        A good structure method comes from character and character IS human nature. If your structure is not sound, the story will fall apart, because it doesn't express the character. All the elements have to be linked to the main character for it to make any sense. Take a good look at the abomination that is SPECTRE for what it's worth.

                        Structure isn't something static, it is highly creative. Through the structure of your script, you are expressing yourself as a writer. Only when you know the chords, you can improvise on your instrument ... same thing here!

                        "For you to say what Tony Gilroy says is bullshit just floors me. Academy Award nominee Tony Gilroy. Or Jeff Lowell, who has sold 20 pilots! Do you realize the magnitude of that? (...) His experience trumps your speculation."

                        Would you rather appeal to Authority than to reason? An argument has to hold up in a discussion and his simply doesn't.

                        There's a difference between FORM and FORMULA. A screenplay is a different form than a novel. A Horror film is a different form than an Action picture. A Slasher film is a different form than a Splatter film ...

                        "(...)pacing has a lot of intuitiveness to it. That is my technique."

                        The first sentence is certainly true. But you needed to develop that intuitiveness. That's our brain adapting to a complex system that's beyond our immediate grasp. However, when we lack the experience, gut feelings are oftentimes wrong. You have to go through the training wheels before you can trust those instincts.

                        As an artist you are always using the left and right side of your brain, which means using both creative and analytic techniques.
                        Last edited by Yaso; 11-10-2015, 12:11 PM.

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                        • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                          Ah well, I tried lol.

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                          • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                            So far we have had analogies relating writing to football, golf, baking, music... To me, this illustrates how difficult it is to identify and talk about the quicksilver something(s) that makes a screenplay great. As a result, the very nature of the dogmatic story beats in the STC model should make it immediately suspect.

                            For example, Save The Cat says the Catalyst (Inciting Incident) must fall on page 12, must be the 4th plot point, and must be the moment where life as the protag knows it changes. Examples he gives are the Dear John letter, getting fired from a job, the news that you have cancer and a month to live. A BIG moment to say the least.

                            However, as I mentioned above, in The Godfather, the catalyst comes at the end of act one. It's the moment when Don Vito refuses to get into the drug business with Sollozzo, even against the advice of Tom and Sonny. And Michael, the protagonist, isn't even at that meeting.

                            It's subtle, it almost seems business-as-usual, nothing to fear, nothing BIG, especially since Don Vito is very comfortable saying no and is unconcerned. At first thought you may think this scene exists to show the Godfather makes his own decisions in spite of his advisors.

                            Yet this decision triggers every plot point that follows: the shooting of the Don, the death of Sonny, the journey of protag Michael becoming the next Godfather.

                            In some films, the catalyst happens shortly after fade in. Basic Instinct for example -- the murder of a man by a blond woman who may or may not be Catherine. Without that murder there would be no investigation, no story, and two leads would never meet. If this inciting incident was pushed further back to hit the STC page 12 mark, it would have slowed things down.

                            The catalyst/inciting incident happens early in Alien too. It's the transmission that causes the crew to wake from hypersleep earlier than planned. But the news isn't "life as we know it has changed" BIG. The crew believes they just have to check something out then its back to business.

                            I'm sure some will say The Godfather or Basic Instinct or Alien are old films that are exceptions to the STC rule.

                            But I think these are iconic movies that illustrate how much story actually drives structure and not the other way around. Yes, your catalyst/inciting incident happens in act one. But when and how it happens, and what page it falls on, is a choice you must make in a way that best serves your specific story. Figuring that out is hard but when you do figure it out it will make your script far better than marching in lockstep with STC.
                            Last edited by sc111; 11-10-2015, 02:55 PM.
                            Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                            • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                              For my analogies, the baking school one says you need to know basic principles inside out one you do, you gotta throw them away.

                              For the golf analogy, you need to work on your process like a golfer works on his swing.

                              I think also there's a point that has not been noted yet and that's there is a big difference between reading screenwriting theory and absorbing/applying principles.

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                              • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                                Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                                So far we have had analogies relating writing to football, golf, baking, music... To me, this illustrates how difficult it is to identify and talk about the quicksilver something(s) that makes a screenplay great. As a result, the very nature of the dogmatic story beats in the STC model should make it immediately suspect.
                                I've been reading through the last few pages and became increasingly annoyed by all the nonsensical analogies.

                                Yaso, if you can't learn anything from watching films you're either watching the wrong films or you are watching them wrong. Structure is important of course you can create your own fluid structure within time. But there are plenty of things that I would claim are even more important. Unfortunately a lot of them can't be taught or learnt (brit spelling).

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