Note To Gucci: Mazin's Point On "Summing Up Your Characters"

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  • #91
    Re: Note To Gucci: Mazin's Point On "Summing Up Your Characters"

    Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
    Again, I didn't point out Gucci's pages. I didn't make it personal with Gucci. Discussing the style of TELLING, was not personal. It was discussing craft.

    And we are not "talking eons apart." Mazin said it clearly he knows professional writers do it, but he still insists that the up and coming non-pros not to do it because he considers it "not good craft."

    If Gucci takes offense to me highlighting his style of TELLING with his character introductions as a way to lead into this discussion, then I'll be happy to apologize publicly to him.
    Stop with the Mazin this, Mazin that. Why do you keep going back to it? Craig Mazin is very capable of speaking for himself. He doesn't need a parrot. How about it you just say what YOUR opinion is and let Mazin speak for himself? If anyone wants to ask him his opinion they can do it directly, here's his twitter handle... @clmazin.

    yeah, you're the only one who doesn't think it was personal.

    Here's how you tell when someone is making it personal... and BTW posting an opinion about private pages on a public forum when no one who isn't registered can't view it, kind of defeats the purpose of posting it on a public forum.

    and if you honestly believe that it's important to discuss SHOWING not TELLING in the public forum, why would you refer to a person's pages that no one other than registered members can see. No one gains any new enlightenment because you've taken away what you're referring to. It makes no sense.

    The bold parts are where you made it personal.

    In the script pages forum, Gucci posted some pages to a potential TV series. The majority of Gucci’s style of writing for character introductions is TELLING, not SHOWING. He SHOWS on screen what he TELLS after the character introductions.

    When it comes to character introductions, I believe a discussion on SHOWING and TELLING should be done publicly, so this is why I’m posting here and not in Gucci’s private thread.

    Please, don’t reveal any details about Gucci’s pages without permission from Gucci.

    ...
    When I pointed out to Gucci that this style would bring the wrath of Craig Mazin down upon him, Gucci replied: and btw, no one who isn't on the private forum can look it up, so why post it here, and refer to it?

    “I guess my overall is: I don’t like character intros that feel pat and stale. So, maybe he (Mazin) and I are saying the same thing differently.”

    No, you and Mazin are not saying the same thing in a different way. Far from it.

    Gucci, a writer gave Mazin an example of a character introduction that had your type of style and Mazin’s opinion was the following:


    Gucci, I believe your protagonist’s character introduction in the pages that you posted “demonstrates a level of talent commensurate with Quentin Tarantino,” so it would be interesting if Mazin read this, would he change his opinion about “summing up” characters.
    And why post this on an open public forum when you are clearly addressing Gucci?

    How can you possibly say it wasn't personal?

    Gucci, I'm sorry about this. I'll stop now. maybe the whole thing will just die away.
    Last edited by finalact4; 09-25-2019, 08:17 AM.
    "Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist,- Pablo Picasso

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    • #92
      Re: Note To Gucci: Mazin's Point On "Summing Up Your Characters"

      Originally posted by Bono View Post
      I was 100% joking! Come on kids, keep up. It's okay Joe. I only care about Gucci too. Opps, sorry everyone. I care about you too..
      The only one I care about is me too... Fukkin looky there, I guess us three DO have something in common. HAHA! Joke.. I love you ALL. *smooches*

      But, yeah, hand raised. I'll read the pages and give my thoughts. I may say your character intros feel too rushed tho "Needs to come in LATER... after they say a bunch'a sh!." Ha!
      Bruh, fukkin *smooches*! Feel me? Ha!

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      • #93
        Re: Note To Gucci: Mazin's Point On "Summing Up Your Characters"

        Originally posted by GucciGhostXXX View Post
        The only one I care about is me too... Fukkin looky there, I guess us three DO have something in common. HAHA! Joke.. I love you ALL. *smooches*

        But, yeah, hand raised. I'll read the pages and give my thoughts. I may say your character intros feel too rushed tho "Needs to come in LATER... after they say a bunch'a sh!." Ha!
        You have such an awesome attitude about everything. Kudos, dude.
        "Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist,- Pablo Picasso

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        • #94
          Re: Note To Gucci: Mazin's Point On "Summing Up Your Characters"

          Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
          You have such an awesome attitude about everything. Kudos, dude.
          Ha! Thanks!

          And, I don't mind your words here AT ALL. Speak your mind, much as you want! I say.
          Bruh, fukkin *smooches*! Feel me? Ha!

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          • #95
            Re: Note To Gucci: Mazin's Point On "Summing Up Your Characters"

            Originally posted by GucciGhostXXX View Post

            And, I don't mind your words here AT ALL. Speak your mind, much as you want! I say.
            finalact4 is saying I did you wrong. Do you agree?

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            • #96
              Re: Note To Gucci: Mazin's Point On "Summing Up Your Characters"

              Speaking of character introductions has anyone introduced themselves more clearly than Gucci when he came back here?

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              • #97
                Re: Note To Gucci: Mazin's Point On "Summing Up Your Characters"

                Originally posted by Bono View Post
                Speaking of character introductions has anyone introduced themselves more clearly than Gucci when he came back here?
                Nope.
                "Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist,- Pablo Picasso

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: Note To Gucci: Mazin's Point On "Summing Up Your Characters"

                  Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                  finalact4 is saying I did you wrong. Do you agree?
                  Meh... I'll just say that it wasn't my favorite thing. But I like drama so there ya go. Ha! Beats a room full of crickets.

                  You know what. This thread got me thinking: "Have I ALWAYS written my intros this way?" Went back and skimmed my first script and... YUP! Not as verbose, but definitely late.

                  I asked myself WHY?

                  I think for me it's about pacing and when it FEELS right to my brain to drop it in. Most of my intros come after what, to me, is a MOMENT.

                  Idk how else to describe the feeling it gives me other than: Take the opening to Pulp Fiction. Once the chick jumps onto the table and yells "Any of you fukkin' pricks move and I'll execute every one of you motherfukkers!" Cut to: character intro.

                  I'm going for that type'a 'feeling.'

                  BUT!

                  I can imagine doing it without any character intro if done cleverly. Let's say it's a weird Charlie Kaufman-esue piece. I could see us opening on a slow zoom in on our nebbishy character sitting in a coffee shop fiddling with something in his hands. All the while, he's introing himself in VO, and being very specific: age, height, weight, food restrictions, how many times a day he masturbates. Etc. WAY too much information. He concludes with "Yes, I'm a loser, just like you thought. Now quit fukking looking at me!" Just then he spins facing an attractive woman staring at him, or perhaps past him. We learn then that he was talking to her, in his head. He continues on in his mind "No, I've never actually been on a date... and no I've never sworn allowed. But in my mind I get to be whoever I want to be."

                  Now we see what he's been fiddling with. He's crafted an ornate flower of folded up napkins. Collects his things. Moves toward the woman. Right as he gets to her, crumples it, tosses it in the garbage. Exits.

                  I can imagine someone more talented than me (Charlie Kaufman) making that type of 'coloring outside the lines' character intro work for me on the page.

                  On the page there IS no character intro. On the screen, yes. Because he found a clever (we'll pretend) way to slip it right past you. I think CK is smart enough to fool me that way where it doesn't feel like an exposition dump.
                  Bruh, fukkin *smooches*! Feel me? Ha!

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                  • #99
                    Re: Note To Gucci: Mazin's Point On "Summing Up Your Characters"

                    Originally posted by Bono View Post
                    Speaking of character introductions has anyone introduced themselves more clearly than Gucci when he came back here?
                    Ha! I was pretty ON THE NOSE with that one. LOL
                    Bruh, fukkin *smooches*! Feel me? Ha!

                    Comment


                    • Re: Note To Gucci: Mazin's Point On "Summing Up Your Characters"

                      In real life, I'm the same way. My best friend at one of my jobs hated me for 3 months and I never changed my personality. I just come out hot as me and I know it's not for everyone. But I grow on many people... like a fungus.

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                      • Re: Note To Gucci: Mazin's Point On "Summing Up Your Characters"

                        Which is why I hate the "likable" note. I rarely meet someone and instantly like them... except for Tom Cruise.
                        Bruh, fukkin *smooches*! Feel me? Ha!

                        Comment


                        • Re: Note To Gucci: Mazin's Point On "Summing Up Your Characters"

                          Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                          Oh man, you do exhaust me.
                          Lol. Kettle-Pot much? You've been rehashing your "Mazin would condemn Gucci's intros" narrative since Gucci posted Hybrid Underground in June. Yes, June! It was in that JUNE thread you first said:

                          Uh-oh, you've just lost the love of Craig Mazin.

                          Craig Mazin hates this type of character introductions from writers, pro or non-pro. The following is Mazin's opinion on character introductions:
                          And here you are , again quoting Mazin, again declaring he would hate Gucci's pages, and again clueless to how exhausting you are.

                          Wow.
                          Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                          • Re: Note To Gucci: Mazin's Point On "Summing Up Your Characters"

                            LOCKED THREAD (i hope this works)

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                            • Re: Note To Gucci: Mazin's Point On "Summing Up Your Characters"

                              Fine... But let's see those pages. *smooches*
                              Bruh, fukkin *smooches*! Feel me? Ha!

                              Comment


                              • Re: Note To Gucci: Mazin's Point On "Summing Up Your Characters"

                                Originally posted by GucciGhostXXX View Post
                                Meh... I'll just say that it wasn't my favorite thing.
                                Well, then I apologize.

                                To the members:

                                Some members questioned me about mentioning Craig Mazin’s opinion about “Stop Summoning Up Your Characters.” That was the purpose, the heart of this thread. I felt Mazin’s opinion on this topic, no matter if written by a pro or non-pro, “not good craft” was off.

                                Hey, I know Mazin’s an Emmy Award winning writer, but it was just my opinion. You don’t have to agree with it.

                                And you don’t have to attack me personally about it. You’re allowed to give your own opinion why you agree with Mazin, which I like to point out not one member did post that they agree TELLING is bad craft, though this surprised me, considering past discussions on SHOWING and TELLING when it came to character introductions.

                                Some members questioned why use Gucci as your example and not myself.

                                If my style of summing up characters was on the same caliber of Gucci’s, I would have, but it’s not. So, posting one of my examples, such as post #21, would have defeated the purpose of the thread to demonstrate that summing up characters is not bad craft.

                                I had no idea Gucci would take offense. I didn’t have his permission to post any of his pages, or his Chef Gavin Drako character introduction, so I didn’t post any of his material. I even made sure I didn’t mention the title of his work, CANIVORE.

                                At the end of my original post, I praised Gucci’s writing as being on the same level and caliber as Quentin “f’in” Tarantino.

                                For what I’m about to say, finalact4 is gonna accused me of seeking attention, but seriously, all the personal attacks, i.e., I’m seeking attention, my ego is in the way, I’m unprofessional, I post in bad faith, I’m full of bullshit, etc., has been exhausting to deal with, so I’m gonna take a break from Done Deal for a while and concentrate on my writing.

                                Good luck with your writing and goals everyone.

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