Three Act Structure (Part 2)

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  • #76
    Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

    Originally posted by sc111 View Post
    I've come to the conclusion that a lot of what's needed for executing structure well can be intuitive and possibly internalized after watching so many films all of our lives.

    My first attempt at writing a script was adapting my own unfinished novel. At the time, I was challenged to give it a shot by my friend who was exploring screenwriting. My only attempt at "study" was reading a few pages of one produced screenplay she sent me to figure out basic format, sluglines, etc. I didn't read to the end because I'd seen the movie many years prior. I wrote this script before reading any of the guru books or discovering this site or any other online instruction.

    The process of adapting my own first-person novel was -- at least for me -- an enlightening experience on the discipline of screenwriting. Recognizing the need for visually dramatizing internal dialogue, streamlining the storyline, condensing characters, etc.

    I essentially dismantled the story and wrote entirely new scenes though the theme, plot points and main characters remained. I ended up with a 108- page rom com.

    When Save The Cat was published and the StC beat sheet was available online, I compared it against my first script. Weirdly enough, it matched up perfectly -- even the darn "this happens on page X" rules. Hmmm. How did I do that?

    Now, I did major in writing in college. And I did take a number of prose fiction and novel-writing courses in which we discussed character development and plots and theme. This may have given me a bit of a head start but it in no way gave me any training in the 3-act structure of film. I'm convinced I internalized what was required from watching films.

    In my opinion, discussions of 3-act structure don't come close to cracking the code of what makes one script great, memorable and another script "eh." Many "eh" scripts are perfectly structured but are missing [for lack of a better term] a soul or perhaps we can call it the ghost in the machine.

    I'd say, when it comes to structure, learning the basics is fine and doesn't take much time because, if you've been watching films all of your life, you've likely internalized it anyway.

    I'd put more focus on discovering the soul of your story and build on that.
    I agree. Structure is a basic tool. It's not complicated and it's not difficult. Even young children tell stories with good structure. I do believe that when you analyze your favorite movies it demystifies structure. Once you can identify the major plot point turns, everything becomes easier. I think structure problems arise from a writer indulging in extraneous story lines, subplots and unnecessary beats.
    "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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    • #77
      Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

      Originally posted by sc111 View Post
      You're more than suggesting, Joe. You're insisting and taking issue with my opinion that other elements may be of more importance.
      Well, let's take a look at the evidence: sc111 post #66: "I'd put more focus on discovering the soul of your story and build on that."

      By saying "put more focus on soul," ain't you implying more importance to this element, where it's upon your belief that great structure will happen "intuitively" as you write, according to this process?

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      • #78
        Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

        Originally posted by finalact4 View Post

        He told you why he didn't post anything further here.

        http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/...t=85603&page=2

        If the original author does not wish to contribute to your thread, I think you should respect their wishes and refrain from reposting their words from another thread.
        steve says he talked enough about the three-act structure, but he proceeds to talk about Gurus and the three-act structure in a thread called: ARCHETYPE vs. STEROTYPE.

        finalact4, please, don't mother steve. He's not your baby that needs protection.

        Steve posted a statement on public boards to be seen and commented on. I didn't want to sidetrack the OP's ARCHETYPE thread, so I posted in the Three Act Structure (Part 2) thread, which discusses Gurus, which I thought was the appropriate action to take.

        If you have a problem with that, file a complaint with Will (Done Deal Pro).

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        • #79
          Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

          Originally posted by Bono View Post

          I thought the whole point of this thread is that structure is the most important thing.
          Where in (Part 1) was it mentioned that Three Act Structure was the most important thing? (Part 1) was to give new writers an understanding on the traditional three-act structure. (Part 2) was to give new writers an understanding on the Gurus' structural models.

          It was mention that of the three acts, Act 1 was the most important of the three, but not the most important major element in writing a great script.

          I've seen interviews where when some professional writers were asked what was the most important element in writing a good script these writers came out and replied: some will say character and some will say story, but structure is the most important.

          I'm not gonna say that. I believe in order to write a great screenplay all the major elements are of equal importance.

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          • #80
            Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

            Truth is the most important thing to writing a great screenplay is actual writing screenplays. We all spend too much time talking about writing when we could be learning from doing.

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

              Originally posted by finalact4 View Post

              I agree. Structure is a basic tool. It's not complicated and it's not difficult.
              "basic"? "not difficult"?

              I think what we got here... is a failure to communicate. ("Cool Hand Luke" reference.)

              When I talk about the traditional three act structure, I'm not just talking about the 5 major story plot points. In (Part 1), at the bottom of the page, I go into the composition of the dramatic structure of Acts 1, 2 and 3.

              If you believe that's basic stuff and not so difficult, then I say I wish I was at your level as a writer because for me it's not so basic, nor easy. It's a lot of thought and work.

              One more thing, in order to write with soul, where it'll have an emotional impact on your audience, it would have to be structured/specific order to obtained that perfect emotional response from your audience. If it's not structured properly, the emotional response the writer was looking for will fail.
              Last edited by JoeNYC; 05-23-2020, 10:49 PM.

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              • #82
                Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                Originally posted by Bono View Post
                Truth is the most important thing to writing a great screenplay is actual writing screenplays. We all spend too much time talking about writing when we could be learning from doing.
                Yes, you're so right about learning frum frem fram ... fromage ... from do be do ... do dooo dooooo dooooooo ... do doh ray me ... do from doing. My oh my what a wonderful day ... my oh my ... my oh ... oh my brain surgeon says that he learned mainly from do ... easy now ... from doing, and I've turned out absolutely eggnog.
                Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
                "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

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                • #83
                  Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                  Originally posted by Bono View Post
                  Truth is the most important thing to writing a great screenplay is actual writing screenplays. We all spend too much time talking about writing when we could be learning from doing.
                  Yes, unfortunately, my flaw as a writer is procrastination.

                  I'm just waiting for finalact4 to come back and chew me out, and then I can get back to finishing my teen romantic comedy script titled: YOU GOT THE LOOK.

                  Bono, when I post the link to the screenplay for opinions, I hope you check it out. If you would like to do an actual swap of feedback on one of your comedy scripts, PM me.

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                  • #84
                    Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                    Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                    Yes, unfortunately, my flaw as a writer is procrastination.

                    I'm just waiting for finalact4 to come back and chew me out, and then I can get back to finishing my teen romantic comedy script titled: YOU GOT THE LOOK.

                    Bono, when I post the link to the screenplay for opinions, I hope you check it out. If you would like to do an actual swap of feedback on one of your comedy scripts, PM me.

                    Procrastination is most of us. I'm back baby -- but I took like 5 years off. I thought I was working, but I wasn't. I didn't get a feature film done. I was on fire from 2004 to 2011. Then real life happened -- yada yada -- but I bounced back. So trust me, I'm not some writer who doesn't get that. I get it.

                    But I also learned you got to let things go too. I think you've been working on that spec a long time. I would strongly suggest that you write a new teen romantic comedy if that's what you want. Every time I tried to go backwards with an old script -- it didn't work out. The simplest reason is because I'm not the same person I was then.

                    So if you start writing a spec in say 2010 and still writing in 2020, how can you even relate to that the same way? You were say 30 when you started it and now you're 40? You may feel 16 inside like me -- but 10 years has gone by... you're a lot closer to middle age than being a teenager. I have no idea how old you are, but I'm just saying for me, that's what makes it hard.

                    I noticed my leads are now 40 instead of 25. Because I'm that age.

                    And in these times -- it's like a time capsule sometimes.

                    Ideas are never dead -- but if you keep working on the same scripts over and over and never show anyone -- then you won't break free of it and write the next one that is going to be better because hopefully along the way we all become better writers.

                    If you post it, i may check it out. but first you have to finish it if that's what you're going to do.

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                    • #85
                      Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                      Originally posted by Bono View Post

                      I think you've been working on that spec a long time. I would strongly suggest that you write a new teen romantic comedy if that's what you want.
                      No, I haven't worked on it for a long time. It's just been in the draw for a long time.

                      Years ago, I had written a draft, posted some pages on a different writing site and it got hammered, but because of a marketing challenge with it being a soft, romantic comedy, I put it away instead of working on it and moved on to other screenplays.

                      I just recently discovered a new way to market it and write it. So, I took it out of the draw and revised it. It practically is new.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                        Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                        "basic"? "not difficult"?

                        I think what we got here... is a failure to communicate. ("Cool Hand Luke" reference.)

                        When I talk about the traditional three act structure, I'm not just talking about the 5 major story plot points. In (Part 1), at the bottom of the page, I go into the composition of the dramatic structure of Acts 1, 2 and 3.

                        If you believe that's basic stuff and not so difficult, then I say I wish I was at your level as a writer because for me it's not so basic, nor easy. It's a lot of thought and work.

                        One more thing, in order to write with soul, where it'll have an emotional impact on your audience, it would have to be structured/specific order to obtained that perfect emotional response from your audience. If it's not structured properly, the emotional response the writer was looking for will fail.
                        Because I don't agree with YOU, there's a failure to communicate?

                        You can repeat your statements over and over again until you're blue in the face, it doesn't change my experience or my opinion. Structure hasn't been a problem for me and came very natural.

                        You have a different experience-- not all writers have the same path.

                        I also don't agree with your statement that to have emotional impact your story has to be PERFECTLY structured. It's simply not true. Structure is a tool. A tool of organization. And if it's an amazing story it doesn't matter if that first plot point happens on page 5 or 18.

                        It's like building construction. You can have a house with studs 16" apart or 24" apart, they result in walls. One building may use I beams and another uses H beams, and yet they both have floor joists and trusses. One may have a poured concrete floor while another has a dirt floor, but both have a basement.

                        The point is, use what works for YOUR story. And remember that your story may be constructed a different way, and that's okay.

                        A scene(s) can stand on its own and have an emotional impact. Structure doesn't have anything to do with with whether we connect with characters, feel empathy for them, or whether we dread the next moment. That is all craft: it's scene work, character development, set ups and pay offs, reversals, revelations, just to name a few.

                        You shouldn't have to THINK about structure when you write your screenplay, imo. So many successful writers never do. It comes naturally. Story structure can be as little as three beats. Something happens, then something gets worse, then it gets resolved either in a positive way or a negative way.

                        The problem I see, JoeNYC, is that you're so rigid in your thinking, that you expect everyone to agree with you. You spend large amounts of time debating other writer's opinion. We do not have to agree with you.

                        I for one, do not. When someone disagrees with you Joe, it's not a "chewing out."
                        "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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                        • #87
                          Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                          Originally posted by finalact4 View Post

                          After formatting, structure is probably the easiest element for any writer to learn and master. ... You do not want your story meandering into "unknown" territory. A structure outline keeps you on task ... Once you learn structure it's not something you have to worry about, because it's simple.
                          You equate structure to be as easy as setting up the format of the screenplay. Sorry, I don't get this. When I struggle to outline my story, which every story is different, I don't find it to be easy, as you say.

                          And I'm not talking just about the 5 major plot points that a story hangs on. I'm talking about structuring theme(s), scenes, sequences, subplots, set pieces, set ups, pacing, etc. everything that's required in order to structure a well balanced, coherent, great story.

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                          • #88
                            Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                            Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                            You equate structure to be as easy as setting up the format of the screenplay. Sorry, I don't get this. When I struggle to outline my story, which every story is different, I don't find it to be easy, as you say.

                            And I'm not talking just about the 5 major plot points that a story hangs on. I'm talking about structuring theme(s), scenes, sequences, subplots, set pieces, set ups, pacing, etc. everything that's required in order to structure a well balanced, coherent, great story.
                            I understood you the first time. I'm sorry it's a struggle for you. You're simply restating the same points over and over as if it's going to change my mind... it won't.
                            "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                              Originally posted by finalact4 View Post

                              A scene(s) can stand on its own and have an emotional impact. Structure doesn't have anything to do with with whether we connect with characters, feel empathy for them, or whether we dread the next moment. That is all craft: it's scene work, character development, set ups and pay offs, reversals, revelations, just to name a few.

                              You shouldn't have to THINK about structure when you write your screenplay, imo. So many successful writers never do.
                              finalact4, if you want the audience to feel sympathy for a character, yes, you can write an opening scene where you can achieve this outcome, but to get an audience to cry, to have tears run down their faces, I believe there needs to be an emotional connection between a character and the audience.

                              To achieve this with a cold opening, without properly structuring this, I believe it would be difficult to achieve.

                              I could be wrong. As an experiment, why don't you post a scene in the Script Pages forum that "can stand on its own" to demonstrate how EASY it is to achieve an emotional connection that will make an audience cry.

                              I mean, if I stop in a funeral home, where people are crying for the decease because it's a love one, I'm not crying for this stranger because there is no emotional connection that was set up previously.

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                              • #90
                                Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                                Originally posted by finalact4 View Post

                                The problem I see, JoeNYC, is that you're so rigid in your thinking, that you expect everyone to agree with you. You spend large amounts of time debating other writer's opinion. We do not have to agree with you.
                                finalact4, how come when you give your opinion, it's all cool, but when I give my opinion, I'm being "rigid." I'm "badging" you to get you to agree with me.

                                With this type of logic, I can say the same about you with all your post directed at me. Your the one that accused me of doing KitchonaSteve wrong.

                                We have done this dance before.

                                In the ONE-ON-ONE forum, when we were in a heated discussion with the Betsy Ross Flag thread, I had told you then and there that my involvement wasn't to get you to change your opinion. It was only to put my opinion out there for the public to see where I stand on the topic.

                                This goes for any topic I am in a discussion with.

                                finalact4, you're entitled to your opinion. I would like for you to give me the same courtesy about my opinion and not accuse me of evil motives.

                                I want to say something about KitchonaSteve.

                                When I was a new writer looking for screenwriting sites, where I could learn the craft, I would decide which site to join by browsing to see the knowledge of the posters.

                                I found Steve's posts to be one of the members I found to be very knowledgeable that convinced me to join Done Deal Pro's screenwriting site. (So, if anyone is upset having me as a member, you got Steve to thank for that.)

                                Anyway, I have great respect for Steve. We have different opinions on Gurus and three act structure, even though I don't agree 100% with Gurus, I do believe they offer value to a new writer in gaining knowledge in the craft of screenwriting.

                                My point is, regardless what finalact4 insinuates, I don't believe Steve's opinion is wrong and my opinion is right. Steve's opinion is right for him on how to achieve a great screenplay and my opinion is right for me on how to achieve a great screenplay -- hopefully.

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