High Concept vs New High Concept

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  • JeffLowell
    replied
    Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

    Joe, I've seen plenty of movies that I thought had bad ideas that did well. I'm not the final word on anything.

    What you don't seem to get is that I'm not zooming all over the internet crapping on random people's ideas. When you or whoever posts here as part of an argument, or post in threads asking for notes, I'm gonna be honest. Listen, don't listen, I don't care.

    If you don't ever want to be scared off an idea because it might be the one, if you feel that passion and you're determined to write it, then just write it and stop throwing it out here.

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  • JoeNYC
    replied
    Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

    Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post

    Good execution won't save a bad concept
    Here it is. This is the heart of my issue.

    With the aspect of subjectivity, who is the authority to deem a concept bad or not. This is what I've been trying to get across using Low Concept story ideas that were critical and commercial successes. This is why I was using ordinary, middle-of-the-road, non-high concept story ideas that were executed and produced where they were not a critical success, but a commercial success.

    Maybe these non-high concept, ordinary story ideas were not perceived as GREAT, but it was the RIGHT script. It worked. Are there some that ended up not working? Of course, but who actually knows that until you present the product to the public.

    I'm talking about a well constructed concept/logline. Not a badly crafted concept/logline like we help a writer with in the LOGLINE forum where the writer might present their logline without a clear goal, active protagonist, etc.

    "Good execution won't save a bad concept"

    You can tell if a concept has a shot of being commercial or not. You can tell if a concept is so GREAT, it'll have a shot in getting read requests.

    But, who has the crystal ball to predict -- without a doubt -- where they can confidently say to a writer, who has a burning passion to tell a story, this story idea that you're thinking of is bad. If you execute it, it's not gonna get produced, no matter what, and if it does -- it'll be a critical and commercial bomb.

    Every story idea I put out there to make a point how someone might say to a writer that's a bad idea, don't write it, but it turns out to be a commercial success, Jeff says, well, it was a good story idea because of this or that.

    Jeff, in the history of cinema, there must have been one story idea that you would have perceived as bad, but it turned out to be a critical and commercial success.

    And if there is one, and that writer was told it's a bad story idea, where he was discourage from writing it. He not only missed out from writing a great piece of work, but the audience missed out on viewing a wonderful story.

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  • Bono
    replied
    Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

    Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
    I think those are good definitions, Bono. I also think a crass one is: how easy will this movie be to sell? There are movies where you see the poster and trailer in your head when you hear the logline. Then there are movies that only have a chance if they're well executed and well reviewed.

    The first kind - the high concept ones - are easier to get up the ladder. Not that the other kind shouldn't be written - just know what you're up against.

    And one of the things we've been dancing around for the last week is the confusion between low concept and shitty. There've been some examples of bad high concept movies pitched here recently, and the defense is always some variation on "the execution will save it." Good execution won't save a bad concept, IMHO.
    Yes -- exactly.

    Also what's the chances a writer has (good/great/insert your own word here) writing ability and can execute any idea to the max but also has shitty ideas too? In my mind -- those two skills go together.

    Picking your best idea to write and writing a great script are part of execution NOT separate things in my mind.

    A pro writer or wanna be pro like myself "executes" bad ideas before they waste time writing a spec that won't sell.

    ADD -- And of course this is no 100% formula to have success, but there is close (in my eyes) to 100% formula for failure.
    Last edited by Bono; 08-13-2020, 03:01 PM.

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  • JeffLowell
    replied
    Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

    I think those are good definitions, Bono. I also think a crass one is: how easy will this movie be to sell? There are movies where you see the poster and trailer in your head when you hear the logline. Then there are movies that only have a chance if they're well executed and well reviewed.

    The first kind - the high concept ones - are easier to get up the ladder. Not that the other kind shouldn't be written - just know what you're up against.

    And one of the things we've been dancing around for the last week is the confusion between low concept and shitty. There've been some examples of bad high concept movies pitched here recently, and the defense is always some variation on "the execution will save it." Good execution won't save a bad concept, IMHO.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bono
    replied
    Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

    The whole point of high concept is that everyone knows what it is because it's an easy to understand premise. So if you hear a premise and see the movie already in your head, that's high concept.

    Low concept is more about characters not plot. And those movies are hard for others to see in their heads before they read or watch your movie.

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  • SundownInRetreat
    replied
    Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

    Originally posted by sc111 View Post
    Because now this thread has put forth all sorts of definitions: High Concept; New High Concept; Low-Brow High Concept, and Great Concept.
    For the record, I never put New High Concept forward as a definition - I was just drawing a distinction within High Concept so that you'd all understand what I was banging on about rather than confuse you all by musing whether we should write high concept or high concept?


    Perhaps High Concept, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder?
    Not to me. Pretty straight forward IMO.

    Leave a comment:


  • sc111
    replied
    Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

    Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post

    Plus it's got a great title, which I think helps make something high concept. Joe gave the example of "Dude, Where's My Car?" being low concept - I disagree. First off, the title makes me laugh, and the logline - two stoners forget where they parked their car after a night of partying - is original, it tells you what the movie is quickly, it tells you what kind of comedy it is...

    If you think about it, "The Hangover" is really just an ensemble "Dude, Where's My Car?"
    Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
    LOL. Dude, Where's My Car is the Mendoza Line of concept.
    If I understand these comments correctly, "Dude Where's My Car" is not low concept but it's on the bottom rung of the high concept ladder (Mendoza Line) while films like Jurassic Park occupy the top rung.

    IMO, this comment makes the most sense:

    Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
    I think people can drive themselves crazy with definitions. If you have a smart contained thriller that has an angle no one has done, you'll get reads. If you're pitching "guy trapped in phone booth pinned down by sniper" or "people trapped in an ATM vestibule" or "guy buried alive," you're going to have a harder time getting attention. I don't think you've ever needed to create a whole new genre - just an interesting twist is fine.
    Because now this thread has put forth all sorts of definitions: High Concept; New High Concept; Low-Brow High Concept, and Great Concept.

    Perhaps High Concept, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder?

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  • Bono
    replied
    Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

    Originally posted by Satriales View Post
    If you queried "Dude Where's My Car- in early 1999 you're getting a read.
    Agreed. Also -- according to the sales archive if you made anything from 20 years ago -- you're getting it re-sold TODAY as well.

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  • Satriales
    replied
    Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

    If you queried "Dude Where's My Car- in early 1999 you're getting a read.

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  • Bono
    replied
    Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

    I think Joe and others think "great" means the movie was a work of art and great like JAWS versus I'm saying and Jeff is saying "great concepts that will give you a better chance to sell spec script vs other not great ideas."

    SNAKES ON A PLANE is probably not a great movie to most, but it's a great concept in that "yes I want to read that script" and "yes I want to see that movie on Friday."

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  • JoeNYC
    replied
    Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

    Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post

    You can capitalize the word and repeat it a dozen times, it's not what I said. Here is exactly what I said:
    Yes, yes. You're typing and posting too fast. I realized this with your previous post and edited my post to reflect this.

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  • JeffLowell
    replied
    Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

    Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
    The key was Jeff believed the story idea to DUDE, WHERE'S MY CAR was GREAT.
    You can capitalize the word and repeat it a dozen times, it's not what I said. Here is exactly what I said:

    Joe gave the example of "Dude, Where's My Car?" being low concept - I disagree. First off, the title makes me laugh, and the logline - two stoners forget where they parked their car after a night of partying - is original, it tells you what the movie is quickly, it tells you what kind of comedy it is...
    The word "great" is really hanging you up.

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  • lostfootage
    replied
    Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

    I'm in a writing group where we read spec scripts that have sold or were on The Black List but haven't been produced yet. (We tend to read comedy because I pick the scripts, so maybe I'm just talking about comedy here.)

    Here are some of the titles of scripts we've recently read.

    The Aliens are Stealing are Weed
    They Cloned Tyrone
    The Worst Guy Of All Time (and the Girl Who Came to Kill Him)

    Those are all on the nose concepts. And the concepts all worked for me. Whether they worked or not on the page came down to execution.

    All four of us loved the first one. The Aliens steal weed. The hapless pot growers fight back, try to figure WTH is going on. The scripts is great. Stays on track. Loved it.

    Tyrone has a great title, world, characters but the story gets overly complicated. Still, I'd see it in the theater.

    The worst guy goes off the rails in the second half. Still, I think the concept is a fun one.

    All of those sound like fun movies to me.

    I saw Dude Where's My Car in the theater without knowing any specifics because it sounded like a fun movie, and I wasn't disappointed. I think it's a high concept. You can have a low brow high concept. That might be my favorite genre to see in the theater. Hot Tub Time Machine. The Spy Who Dumped Me.

    Maybe I just like movies where I know the movie from the title?

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  • JoeNYC
    replied
    Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

    Originally posted by Bono View Post

    Joe the reason most of us get confused is a lot of your answers, you quote other threads like it's some weird footnote in a college essay and it just goes in circles.
    The key was Jeff believed the story idea to DUDE, WHERE'S MY CAR was GREAT. In my opinion, I do not. I define a story idea as GREAT being one where if it was sent off in a query letter to industry people, they would think, Wow! I gotta request this script!

    If this story idea was presented to other writers, they would say, "Wow! I wish I thought of that." To me, this is a sign of GREAT.

    After a night of hard partying, two stoners forgot where they parked their car, to me, doesn't elevate to the level of GREAT.

    Now, if you want to define the movie GREAT, because it worked with it's targeted audience that's a different definition, which in the "Picking Right Idea" thread is what I thought Jeff was referring to with the success of JOHN TUCKER. This is why I asked him how does he define "GREAT," but he said, when a person hears it they go "Wow!

    Sorry, these scripts were the RIGHT scripts for the RIGHT buyer, where they worked and became commercially successful, but I wouldn't put them on the level of GREAT as I would CASSABLANC, THE GODFATHER, etc.

    This is just my opinion. I know most members in this thread disagree. That's cool.

    Edited to add:

    Jeff posted at the same time as me. It seems he is not saying the same thing as other members, referring to DUDE as great. Just a good concept and execution.
    Last edited by JoeNYC; 08-13-2020, 08:57 AM.

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  • JeffLowell
    replied
    Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

    "Dude, Where's My Car?" is a clear idea that could be good if it's executed correctly. That is literally the first hurdle for every script written. I can not tell you how many loglines I read that do not clear that bar. Maybe 95%?

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