High Concept vs New High Concept

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  • #46
    Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

    Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post

    Plus it's got a great title, which I think helps make something high concept. Joe gave the example of "Dude, Where's My Car?" being low concept - I disagree. First off, the title makes me laugh, and the logline - two stoners forget where they parked their car after a night of partying - is original, it tells you what the movie is quickly, it tells you what kind of comedy it is...

    If you think about it, "The Hangover" is really just an ensemble "Dude, Where's My Car?"
    Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
    LOL. Dude, Where's My Car is the Mendoza Line of concept.
    If I understand these comments correctly, "Dude Where's My Car" is not low concept but it's on the bottom rung of the high concept ladder (Mendoza Line) while films like Jurassic Park occupy the top rung.

    IMO, this comment makes the most sense:

    Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
    I think people can drive themselves crazy with definitions. If you have a smart contained thriller that has an angle no one has done, you'll get reads. If you're pitching "guy trapped in phone booth pinned down by sniper" or "people trapped in an ATM vestibule" or "guy buried alive," you're going to have a harder time getting attention. I don't think you've ever needed to create a whole new genre - just an interesting twist is fine.
    Because now this thread has put forth all sorts of definitions: High Concept; New High Concept; Low-Brow High Concept, and Great Concept.

    Perhaps High Concept, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder?
    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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    • #47
      Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

      Originally posted by sc111 View Post
      Because now this thread has put forth all sorts of definitions: High Concept; New High Concept; Low-Brow High Concept, and Great Concept.
      For the record, I never put New High Concept forward as a definition - I was just drawing a distinction within High Concept so that you'd all understand what I was banging on about rather than confuse you all by musing whether we should write high concept or high concept?


      Perhaps High Concept, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder?
      Not to me. Pretty straight forward IMO.
      M.A.G.A.

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      • #48
        Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

        The whole point of high concept is that everyone knows what it is because it's an easy to understand premise. So if you hear a premise and see the movie already in your head, that's high concept.

        Low concept is more about characters not plot. And those movies are hard for others to see in their heads before they read or watch your movie.

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        • #49
          Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

          I think those are good definitions, Bono. I also think a crass one is: how easy will this movie be to sell? There are movies where you see the poster and trailer in your head when you hear the logline. Then there are movies that only have a chance if they're well executed and well reviewed.

          The first kind - the high concept ones - are easier to get up the ladder. Not that the other kind shouldn't be written - just know what you're up against.

          And one of the things we've been dancing around for the last week is the confusion between low concept and shitty. There've been some examples of bad high concept movies pitched here recently, and the defense is always some variation on "the execution will save it." Good execution won't save a bad concept, IMHO.

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          • #50
            Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

            Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
            I think those are good definitions, Bono. I also think a crass one is: how easy will this movie be to sell? There are movies where you see the poster and trailer in your head when you hear the logline. Then there are movies that only have a chance if they're well executed and well reviewed.

            The first kind - the high concept ones - are easier to get up the ladder. Not that the other kind shouldn't be written - just know what you're up against.

            And one of the things we've been dancing around for the last week is the confusion between low concept and shitty. There've been some examples of bad high concept movies pitched here recently, and the defense is always some variation on "the execution will save it." Good execution won't save a bad concept, IMHO.
            Yes -- exactly.

            Also what's the chances a writer has (good/great/insert your own word here) writing ability and can execute any idea to the max but also has shitty ideas too? In my mind -- those two skills go together.

            Picking your best idea to write and writing a great script are part of execution NOT separate things in my mind.

            A pro writer or wanna be pro like myself "executes" bad ideas before they waste time writing a spec that won't sell.

            ADD -- And of course this is no 100% formula to have success, but there is close (in my eyes) to 100% formula for failure.
            Last edited by Bono; 08-13-2020, 03:01 PM.

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            • #51
              Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

              Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post

              Good execution won't save a bad concept
              Here it is. This is the heart of my issue.

              With the aspect of subjectivity, who is the authority to deem a concept bad or not. This is what I've been trying to get across using Low Concept story ideas that were critical and commercial successes. This is why I was using ordinary, middle-of-the-road, non-high concept story ideas that were executed and produced where they were not a critical success, but a commercial success.

              Maybe these non-high concept, ordinary story ideas were not perceived as GREAT, but it was the RIGHT script. It worked. Are there some that ended up not working? Of course, but who actually knows that until you present the product to the public.

              I'm talking about a well constructed concept/logline. Not a badly crafted concept/logline like we help a writer with in the LOGLINE forum where the writer might present their logline without a clear goal, active protagonist, etc.

              "Good execution won't save a bad concept"

              You can tell if a concept has a shot of being commercial or not. You can tell if a concept is so GREAT, it'll have a shot in getting read requests.

              But, who has the crystal ball to predict -- without a doubt -- where they can confidently say to a writer, who has a burning passion to tell a story, this story idea that you're thinking of is bad. If you execute it, it's not gonna get produced, no matter what, and if it does -- it'll be a critical and commercial bomb.

              Every story idea I put out there to make a point how someone might say to a writer that's a bad idea, don't write it, but it turns out to be a commercial success, Jeff says, well, it was a good story idea because of this or that.

              Jeff, in the history of cinema, there must have been one story idea that you would have perceived as bad, but it turned out to be a critical and commercial success.

              And if there is one, and that writer was told it's a bad story idea, where he was discourage from writing it. He not only missed out from writing a great piece of work, but the audience missed out on viewing a wonderful story.

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              • #52
                Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

                Joe, I've seen plenty of movies that I thought had bad ideas that did well. I'm not the final word on anything.

                What you don't seem to get is that I'm not zooming all over the internet crapping on random people's ideas. When you or whoever posts here as part of an argument, or post in threads asking for notes, I'm gonna be honest. Listen, don't listen, I don't care.

                If you don't ever want to be scared off an idea because it might be the one, if you feel that passion and you're determined to write it, then just write it and stop throwing it out here.

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                • #53
                  Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

                  If someone can talk you out of your passion to write an idea, then I think you knew deep in your heart it was a bad idea or you learned you are in the wrong business as you can't take any criticism and overcome.

                  I've written plenty of ideas people crapped on before, during and after writing them. That's the game. So beliving in yourself is a good skill to have as a writer.

                  I was simply saying that some writers believe in themselves soooo much they can't notice that not every single idea they ever had is golden. They can't tell the difference between a good and bad idea. And that stinks for them because if they can't tell, they are just pulling needles out of haystack. Maybe they had a great idea, but they have no way of telling that themselves.

                  If you are a writer who thinks of ideas and can pitch them easily and people go "F yes" I wish I htought of that -- you're killing it. But if you are a writer who rewrites the same idea over and over and over again -- sometimes over years and years and years -- well then you will probably not get what I'm saying at all.

                  The key to all this is one great script can make a career. You can get hired for 10-20 years based on one great script. Think about that. Think about making your next spec the best one every written and that everyone wants to read, see, and make. Instead of fighting about it -- get to writing.

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                  • #54
                    Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

                    Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post

                    What you don't seem to get is that I'm not zooming all over the internet crapping on random people's ideas.
                    I do understand this. You're not, but others are, and I just wanted to make a point about "perceived" bad ideas.

                    Jeff, I'm not looking to give you a hard time. I've been kidded how you're my mentor, but in fact, you've been a mentor to all 300 members.

                    I appreciate the time and effort that you put into this site. In fact, I'm shocked you're still participating. As much as I'll miss your participation, I suggest you do walk away.

                    You took a risk in putting your real name out there, which I appreciate, but it's a fact that there are mentally ill people walking around on this planet.

                    I know that you're not the type of guy to run away scared, but you got a family to protect. You got co-workers who may be around you when someone might feel you slighted them and goes postal.

                    You participate in seminars and festivals. Someone, who may feel you slighted him/her in some way may seek you out because they know your identity, but if someone threatens you, you don't have a clue of their identity, or what they look like where you could take protective precautions.

                    Jeff, yes, I'll miss your participation, and I know how you enjoy helping new writers and having a good discussion about the craft, but I strongly suggest you walk away from this site.

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                    • #55
                      Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

                      Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
                      Aditya Sood ... explains what HE"S looking for... Audiences have a particular set of expectations in any genre. One of the elements he looks for is a story that has a clear genre and then changes precisely one of those conventions.
                      interesting point... probably how you can take the plot for a character you like and change it from being ordinary to be a very 'high' concept one.
                      Ricky Slade: Listen to me, I intentionally make this gun look that way because I am smart.

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                      • #56
                        Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

                        Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                        If you think about it, "The Hangover" is really just an ensemble "Dude, Where's My Car?"
                        are you categorizing Dude as a buddy comedy?

                        as strange as this might sound, but I think they are both coming of age comedies. I've never read the original Hangover, then the finished script, but I would guess the studio exe probably gave notes... younger demo

                        I think ensemble pics are Robert Altman movies.
                        Ricky Slade: Listen to me, I intentionally make this gun look that way because I am smart.

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                        • #57
                          Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

                          Originally posted by Bono View Post

                          If someone can talk you out of your passion to write an idea, then I think you knew deep in your heart it was a bad idea
                          I mentioned before that M. Night Shyamalan said he doesn't run his story ideas by anyone because if there is any negativity about it, he won't write it, so if M. Night feels this way, how do you think negativity about a story idea will affect a fragile, new writer?

                          Edited to add:

                          I can see how things could be confusing as to how one would define "negativity."

                          My issue about this was that I heard members tell writers such things as: Their story idea was bad. Think of a great idea; That's a bad story idea. Don't be lazy. Think of a great idea; Writing a mediocre story idea is a sign of an amateur and not a professional; A writer writes a mediocre story idea because he doesn't have the ability to think of something better, etc.

                          If a writer has a story idea that sounds not commercial, yes, give him a heads up and point that out to him, but don't advise him not to write it. Let the writer decide if he should abandon the project and write something more commercial.

                          I used my teen romantic comedy story idea as an example. Jeff gave me a heads up with a problem concerning predictability. I happened to already know this, but a new writer might not have and this information could have been important to him on how to proceed with the execution. Notice how Jeff, even if he was thinking it, didn't say this is a bad story idea. I suggest for you to spend your time and energy on writing something else.

                          SundownInRetreat mentioned it's derivative of SOME KIND OF WONDERFUL. I had been aware of this, but I had such a passion to write this story, I wrote it anyway. I believe it will connect with the romantic comedy fan base of females under 25, but SundownInRetreat followed up with a suggestion to find a fresh twist, which is a great suggestion.

                          The "It's a bad story idea, don't write it" is the type of negativity that I'm referring to.
                          Last edited by JoeNYC; 08-14-2020, 01:14 AM.

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                          • #58
                            Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

                            Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
                            Look how much moolah the Insidious and Conjuring films have generated despite wearily-ripping off their original forebears from the 80s? So if you wanna write a contained thriller/horror, should you be happy with a concept like ATM, Hatchet and Feast or look to be revolutionary like Alien, Buried and Saw?
                            probably goes to the word used previously, genre-conventions...

                            what makes it new and fun to an audience? Relateable empathetic characters? ...so you take the same old super-powerful villain in a slasher film and pit them against a group of some ordinary teens or unknowing travelers and in a setting that many movie-viewer know and can easily follow.

                            so where is the high concept in that equation?

                            if I was to stick to horror I would look at the king, Stephen King, and how he took the genre to new heights. IMHO, he talks very conventionally to his reader and stays on topic, but also is very topical, and in this makes the character's problems very relatable to his audience, and during the period of time his novels were released, part of our watercooler talk, [insert quote]

                            Originally posted by The Dude
                            Well sure, look at it! Young trophy wife, in the parlance of our times, she owes money all over town, including to known pornographers - and that's cool, that's cool - I'm saying, she needs money, and of course they're gonna say they didn't get it because she wants more, man, she's gotta feed the monkey, I mean, uh - hasn't that ever occurred to you, man? Sir?
                            so if your point is to scare the audience, then these stereotypical characters and modern problems create a high concept

                            Originally posted by Maude Lebowski
                            It's a male myth about feminists that we hate sex. It can be a natural, zesty enterprise. But unfortunately there are some people - it is called satyriasis in men, nymphomania in women - who engage in it compulsively and without joy. Yes, Mr. Lebowski, these unfortunate souls cannot love in the true sense of the word. Our mutual acquaintance Bunny is one of these.
                            Ricky Slade: Listen to me, I intentionally make this gun look that way because I am smart.

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                            • #59
                              Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

                              Originally posted by figment

                              You're suggesting that if a person tells someone they need a sellable idea before writing, they might be physically harmed.
                              "need a sellable idea"?

                              figment, I got no idea why you could not comprehend what I was saying about Jeff being exposed on a public board and the fact that there are potentially unknown mentally ill people out there that could snap by what Jeff says and may put him in danger -- because, you know, his identity is known and the unstable person making threats, their identity is unknown.

                              Jeff's been here for 20 years and no harm has come to him, but still, there is a possibility some wacko goes postal, so I just thought it was something prudent to be considered.

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                              • #60
                                Re: High Concept vs New High Concept

                                Joe, don't give insane people any ideas. Jeff is a sweet soul. That NinjaNinja on the other hand, I can't believe someone hasn't taken a bat to their head.

                                Jeff, will never, ever leave here Joe. Would you step away from a place where you were thought to be the king?

                                I get what you're saying. He's operating under his real name and dealing with a bunch people of ghosts. Invisible people that he has no idea where they live, what they look like and what kind of mental stability they have. You'd think under those circumstances he'd treat everyone with respect and he be courteous.

                                For instance, look at the post exchange where SC111 said there were not many high concept ideas coming out in 2020. Jeff politely corrected her and explained why they did fit the bill of high concept. It was so sweet and endearing. But imagine if someone else had said that about the movies coming out, say me. He would've been rude, demeaning, and insulting. I mean, he created a second account under a pseudonym just so he could torture aspiring writers. I think that's all you need to know about Jeff Lowell as a person. He literally chased Nikeeegodess off these boards cause he wouldn't leave her alone. He tried to bully me, but he realized that was not gonna work. You have to stand up to bullies and b!tch slap them. They will cower away. The snake even went fishing for my real name, God knows what he wanted to do with that info or maybe he was just scared I'd go postal like JoeNYC claimed. Jeff, you'd have to physically harm my wife and kids for me to go postal service on you. Since I know you're a pampered LA writer with zero heart I know you wouldn't do that, so you're safe by me.

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