Craig Mazin Doesn't Like What Linda Seeger Is Selling

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  • Craig Mazin Doesn't Like What Linda Seeger Is Selling

    http://artfulwriter.com/

    Hey, he said it, not me.
    http://www.pjmcilvaine.com/

  • #2
    Re: Craig Mazin Doesn't Like What Linda Seeger Is Selling

    If a writer likes her books and feels advice from Linda or any other consultant would help them, why not hire them? Lot of money to blow but maybe the writer has the cash and feels it'd help them.

    There's a cottage industry out there and many pros bash it. Could be to, say, a surgeon who writes screenplays as a hobby doesn't have the time to watch all of the movies, read all the books, etc. and would prefer to have a mentor relationship and make good use of limited writing time. That person a 'moron' for hiring a consultant?

    Most of these pros: (1) have taken the time to get a MFA and much of this info they learned there; (2) have spent thousands of hours watching an studying films; (3) have a network of pro writer friends or have other trusted readers (like a manager); (4) live in Los Angeles where there are 1,001 screenwriter groups; and (5) know most amateurs are wasting their time screenwriting. 99.99% will never make a dime. That makes all related screenwriting activity and money expenditure a waste of time and cash, including consultants.

    I've attended Nashville and Austin where Craig's been a moderator. Appreciate his advice and understand his position here -- trying to keep the flock of newbies from getting fleeced.

    Better advice might be, "Just quit now!"
    "I talked to a couple of yes men at Metro. To me they said no."


    http://wagstaffnet.blogspot.com/

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    • #3
      Re: Craig Mazin Doesn't Like What Linda Seeger Is Selling

      Originally posted by C.C.Baxter View Post
      There's a cottage industry out there and many pros bash it. Could be to, say, a surgeon who writes screenplays as a hobby doesn't have the time to watch all of the movies, read all the books, etc. and would prefer to have a mentor relationship and make good use of limited writing time. That person a 'moron' for hiring a consultant?
      If a writer's not willing to take the time to learn how to write well, no one should have to take the time to read what they've written.
      Looking to take the "Bono" off my screenname.

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      • #4
        Re: Craig Mazin Doesn't Like What Linda Seeger Is Selling

        Originally posted by ProBono Writer View Post
        If a writer's not willing to take the time to learn how to write well, no one should have to take the time to read what they've written.
        Well, people with money can use money and save time. Not saying they'll learn to be a great writer that way, but for some it may make economic sense. Better use of their time to go do a few surgeries. Let someone like Linda spend a day or two giving them notes.

        People write for different reasons. Given that so few ever sell anything (not quite lottery odds but close), writing is a creative hobby. Maybe some good notes will make their sucky script average or average script pretty good? Maybe they are the rare writer who only needed some notes to create a script someone might want to make?

        A lot of people pay thousands for golf lessons that'll never be on the PGA. If they improve their swing a bit and gives them a hobby they enjoy, where's the harm?

        Some consultants may be cheaper and some better than others, saying they all are a waste is a stretch. Many of the readers (including those here on DDP who are very reasonable) work for production companies and are gatekeepers. Why not know what they'll say BEFORE just getting a polite rejection? Seems like a reasonable thing to do and hardly qualifies that writer as a moron.

        Again, for most everyone it's all a waste of time and money if your measure of success is becoming a pro. Flying to AFF or Nashville, entering contests, buying books, hanging out here, etc. is a fun distraction or hobby for 99.99% of people.
        "I talked to a couple of yes men at Metro. To me they said no."


        http://wagstaffnet.blogspot.com/

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Craig Mazin Doesn't Like What Linda Seeger Is Selling

          Originally posted by C.C.Baxter View Post
          Flying to AFF or Nashville, entering contests, buying books, hanging out here, etc. is a fun distraction or hobby for 99.99% of people.
          A hobby is something one never intends to become a pro at. I'm going to wager a large number of the folks hanging out here would like to become pros. They may never succeed in doing so, but it's not accurate to describe them as hobbyists.
          "Your intuition knows what to write, so get out of the way.-
          ― Ray Bradbury

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          • #6
            Re: Craig Mazin Doesn't Like What Linda Seeger Is Selling

            Originally posted by Ravenlocks View Post
            A hobby is something one never intends to become a pro at. I'm going to wager a large number of the folks hanging out here would like to become pros. They may never succeed in doing so, but it's not accurate to describe them as hobbyists.
            Most people around here are just hobbyists thinking they want to be pros...but most don't have the ideas, the talent, the ingenuity or the energy to really devote the kind of time and effort it takes to make it in the big leagues.

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            • #7
              Re: Craig Mazin Doesn't Like What Linda Seeger Is Selling

              Originally posted by Gillyflower Cooms View Post
              Most people around here are just hobbyists thinking they want to be pros...but most don't have the ideas, the talent, the ingenuity or the energy to really devote the kind of time and effort it takes to make it in the big leagues.
              This may be true, but I don't think that's the point Raven was making. Someone who signs up for a golf lesson doesn't have the delusion that this one lesson may be the only push they need ("hey and maybe the local golf pro has some PGA connections?") to make it into the big leagues.

              The analogy just doesn't fit. Most golfers just play knowing their game is an end in and of itself. Most screenwriters write because they want their words on screen.

              I'm not saying someone is an idiot for using a consultant. But I do find it interesting that pros say they're unnecessary while amateurs swear by them.
              Looking to take the "Bono" off my screenname.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Craig Mazin Doesn't Like What Linda Seeger Is Selling

                Originally posted by ProBono Writer View Post
                This may be true, but I don't think that's the point Raven was making. Someone who signs up for a golf lesson doesn't have the delusion that this one lesson may be the only push they need ("hey and maybe the local golf pro has some PGA connections?") to make it into the big leagues.

                The analogy just doesn't fit. Most golfers just play knowing their game is an end in and of itself. Most screenwriters write because they want their words on screen.

                I'm not saying someone is an idiot for using a consultant. But I do find it interesting that pros say they're unnecessary while amateurs swear by them.
                I have to agree with this. There's really not much point to writing a screenplay if you don't expect to see your words on the screen someday. If you're just a hobbyist, it would make more sense to write a novel, short story, or poem. Even if it doesn't get published, at least you'd have a finished piece.
                QUESTICLES -- It's about balls on a mission.

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                • #9
                  Re: Craig Mazin Doesn't Like What Linda Seeger Is Selling

                  Originally posted by Knaight View Post
                  I have to agree with this. There's really not much point to writing a screenplay if you don't expect to see your words on the screen someday. If you're just a hobbyist, it would make more sense to write a novel, short story, or poem. Even if it doesn't get published, at least you'd have a finished piece.
                  But writing a screenplay is just one of a million ways to express yourself. IMO, true writers write. And they don't force their ideas into a novel or poem or play or short stories, ect. If I get an idea for a novel, I write a novel. If I have an idea for a play, then I write a play. Same with a screenplay. I can't force my ideas for novels into a screenplay and vice versa. And I have an abundance of ideas for both- seriously, if I never had another idea for the rest of my life I would still have plenty to write about.

                  I like to write. And I love to write in all forms. I know the odds and I realize that my screenplays will most likely never get anywhere, but that's not a big deal to me. So what. I'm still going to write.

                  I do, however, have the common sense not to throw my money around, mainly because I don't have any. But even if I did, I wouldn't just blindly hire a consultant.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Craig Mazin Doesn't Like What Linda Seeger Is Selling

                    Craig is just saying don't waste your money on paying for script critique from people who never sold one themselves, he didn't say not to invest on critique from a pro who has sold scripts right? There are some pros who have a script consultant sideline biz and I wish there was more... I mean I'd love to get notes from Tony Gilroy or Susannah Grant etc etc...
                    "you have to write right, right?" -- Todd Gordon

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                    • #11
                      Re: Craig Mazin Doesn't Like What Linda Seeger Is Selling

                      It's Seger. She's been around forever. I wish Craig had more singled out some of these male gurus who are the real sales-mega-whores. I agree with him up to a point.

                      There's a big difference between buying a paperback and shelling out $5000 for a consultation. Come on, newer writers should read a few screenwriting books and get some professional feedback on scripts - along with reading a lot of scripts and seeing a lot of films. If nothing else, it could make the learning process easier and faster for them. You don't have to spend a fortune. You just have to do some research and be cautious.
                      "The Hollywood film business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S Thompson

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                      • #12
                        Re: Craig Mazin Doesn't Like What Linda Seeger Is Selling

                        I agree and completely disagree with what he says. I do think that some of these consultants charge extortionate fees for what amounts to a false promise: if I've written an absolutely hopeless script there is nothing Linda Seger or anyone else can do to make it readable, much less sellable.

                        I've worked as a reader and read some horrors from wannabe writers - to sell any service for thousands of dollars (hell, for thousands of cents) that makes some of these people believe it's next stop Hollywood, is absolutely a con. If screenwriting consultants demanded work submitted in advance and only worked with material they genuinely thought just needed some development, it would be more reasonable - but they wouldn't make a living that way.

                        That said, I completely disagree that you have to be a successful screenwriter in order to be a story consultant. It's a completely different set of skills. It's not a perfect analogy as there is lots more to the director's job, but that would be like suggesting only great actors could direct actors - which is absolute nonsense.

                        Having the ability to analyse and identify weaknesses in someone else's script is not the same as being able to write a brilliant script of your own; and equally, being a fantastic writer does not automatically equip you to critique others'. You might have both of those skillsets, just as you might be able to sing and also ride a horse, but it's not a given.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Craig Mazin Doesn't Like What Linda Seeger Is Selling

                          When I was at drama school, I heard an analogy that was referring to acting, but I think is relevant here.

                          Raw talent is like fresh, high quality ingredients, and drama training (or in this case, screenwriting bibles, consultants, classes, whatever) is like the recipe. If you don't have the ingredients, or they're a bit crappy and smell a bit funny, no recipe is going to turn you into a cordon bleu meal; but, even with the greatest ingredients in the world, it's not going to be easy for that meal to be great without some kind of recipe.

                          As I reader, I've read screenplays that have clearly been written to Syd Field or Blake Snyder to the letter, and while they're a lot easier to read than the bonkers ones I can't make head nor tail of, if the writer doesn't have an innate sense of storytelling or flair for dialogue or a unique voice, it's still not a great script.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Craig Mazin Doesn't Like What Linda Seeger Is Selling

                            In "The Talent Code" by Daniel Coyle there is an assertion that great coaches are often failed practitioners. Perhaps this is overstating Coyle's point, but he offers up a few examples. The most applicable to screenwriting is Linda Septien, a voice teacher in Texas who was classically trained, but struggled trying to cross over to country music. She spent years studying great country and pop singers and analyzed their styles and techniques. She never became a chart topping singer, but she has coached Beyonce and Jessica Simpson to stardom. Coyle offers other examples, mainly from sports, to support his conclusion that great coaches are not necessarily great practitioners.

                            With all that said, I believe there are a lot of less than great consultants hawking their wares and advice in the screenwriting arena. Personally, I never found Linda Seger's stuff useful at all, but I know other who have. Over the years I've gotten advice that's been all over the map. Some of the best advice and feedback I've gotten on scripts have come from people who have never earned a dime as writers, and some of it has come from pros. Likewise, I've received terrible advice from pros, amateurs and consultant/teachers. You just have to learn to sort the good from the bad.
                            Just my 2 cents, your mileage may vary.

                            -Steve Trautmann
                            3rd & Fairfax: The WGAW Podcast

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                            • #15
                              Re: Craig Mazin Doesn't Like What Linda Seeger Is Selling

                              Originally posted by chilldivine View Post
                              That said, I completely disagree that you have to be a successful screenwriter in order to be a story consultant. It's a completely different set of skills. It's not a perfect analogy as there is lots more to the director's job, but that would be like suggesting only great actors could direct actors - which is absolute nonsense.

                              Having the ability to analyse and identify weaknesses in someone else's script is not the same as being able to write a brilliant script of your own; and equally, being a fantastic writer does not automatically equip you to critique others'. You might have both of those skillsets, just as you might be able to sing and also ride a horse, but it's not a given.
                              Thank you. I've made this argument before, but you do it much more eloquently.

                              It does get sticky, though, when consultants who don't have much experience working in film move beyond talking about story and start handing out categorical "advice" on how to succeed in Hollywood. That kind of practical advice is something aspirings should get from working writers, who know.
                              "Your intuition knows what to write, so get out of the way.-
                              ― Ray Bradbury

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