Movies Starring Women Earn More Than Male-Led Films, Study Finds

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  • UpandComing
    replied
    Re: Movies Starring Women Earn More Than Male-Led Films, Study Finds

    Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
    actually, the study in question used 350 films from 2014 - 2017, in which there were more than 2800 films released in total.
    My mistake. I was looking at the methodology for the Hollywood Diversity study, my mind must've been distracted. What can I say, it's Friday!

    Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
    an accurate title would be:

    "Out of the 350 highest grossing US films in the years between 2014 through 2017, Movies Starring Women Earn More Than Male-Led Films, Study Finds" that is accurate.

    compared to what it actually is:

    "Movies Starring Women Earn More Than Male-Led Films, Study Finds."

    i'm not trying to argue with you, my opinion is simply different than yours.
    While the title does simplify the study a bit, I honestly don't find it grossly misleading. I think most people would assume that a study only examines a subset of films rather than all that have been released. And titles are meant to be short and snappy to grab attention in this crowded media environment.

    That said, as you indicate, this is merely a difference of opinion : )

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  • finalact4
    replied
    Re: Movies Starring Women Earn More Than Male-Led Films, Study Finds

    Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
    I'm not sure the sampling is as small as you say, though. There were 736 films released in the U.S. in 2016: https://stephenfollows.com/how-many-...sed-each-year/

    The number examined in the study, 200, is slightly over a quarter of all films released. Also, as the top 200 they likely account for a vast majority of overall box office.
    actually, the study in question used 350 films from 2014 - 2017, in which there were more than 2800 films released in total.

    here is the link to the reference material this study cited: https://shift7.com/media-research

    it was a link within the article and actually has some interesting Bechtel results as well. i'm pretty sure i read it right. in each of those years, films released exceeded 700/year.

    How would you make it more accurate, lol? "Movies Starring Women Among the Top-Grossing 200 Films Earn More Than Male-Led Films in the Same Group"? I think if they felt that the sample was representative enough of the overall set of films, then the title is fine.
    an accurate title would be:

    "Out of the 350 highest grossing US films in the years between 2014 through 2017, Movies Starring Women Earn More Than Male-Led Films, Study Finds" that is accurate.

    compared to what it actually is:

    "Movies Starring Women Earn More Than Male-Led Films, Study Finds."

    the second title infers that it applies to ALL films, where the first title gives an accurate depiction of the scope of the study from a time and quantity perspective.

    that would be accurate to the study. I am not referring to the "2016 Hollywood Diversity Report released by UCLA" you referred to which sampled 200 films of that same year. i am referring to the study of which the OP was based.

    Media selects headlines and titles that are the most provocative, that get the reader to read the contents. period. all titles are designed to get your attention. they entice the reader. regardless, when you read the article and examine the research material cited, you get the picture. it's actually a good article that discusses cast diversity as well. it seems that more and more films (especially due to super hero films) are representing more ensemble diverse casts.

    sometimes people take information at face value. i do it sometimes too.

    i'm not trying to argue with you, my opinion is simply different than yours.
    Last edited by finalact4; 12-14-2018, 02:39 PM.

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  • UpandComing
    replied
    Re: Movies Starring Women Earn More Than Male-Led Films, Study Finds

    Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
    you just can't make these broad brushstroke claims with a sampling so small. so specific. well, actually you can, as they did, but it isn't entirely proved.

    the data is available. they could create the analysis that involves a larger sampling of films. labor intensive? yes, agreed. i think the industry probably already understands the results of the study. if someone wants to dig deeper, they probably will.
    I'm not sure the sampling is as small as you say, though. There were 736 films released in the U.S. in 2016: https://stephenfollows.com/how-many-...sed-each-year/

    The number examined in the study, 200, is slightly over a quarter of all films released. Also, as the top 200 they likely account for a vast majority of overall box office.

    Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
    the title is the problem: Movies Starring Women Earn More Than Male-Led Films.

    why? because it is deliberately misleading. designed to get attention. which is fine. i get it. i do. the reason they didn't title it more accurately, is simply because it isn't as provocative, imo.
    How would you make it more accurate, lol? "Movies Starring Women Among the Top-Grossing 200 Films Earn More Than Male-Led Films in the Same Group"? I think if they felt that the sample was representative enough of the overall set of films, then the title is fine.

    Leave a comment:


  • UpandComing
    replied
    Re: Movies Starring Women Earn More Than Male-Led Films, Study Finds

    Originally posted by Southern_land View Post
    Does the study also find that (on a whole) films with women leads still earn less than ones starring men
    I'm not sure what you mean. Are you talking about all films released within a given year? If so, I thought that point was already addressed in that the study only examines the top-grossing films, as they account for a majority of overall movie box office.

    Originally posted by Southern_land View Post
    and furthermore films starring women are less often appealing to (hetro) men thus automatically eliminating half their audience?
    Are you basing this on any quantitative data rather than an assumption? Even if you are, I think if there actually is a documented reluctance on the part of men, it likely has more to do with the types of movies women may be more likely to lead (such as romantic comedies and dramas -- vs. say, action and thrillers) than the fact that women are leading them. Action movies led by women such as Sicario and Wonder Women have done pretty well with male audiences.

    Leave a comment:


  • finalact4
    replied
    Re: Movies Starring Women Earn More Than Male-Led Films, Study Finds

    hey UpandComing:

    yeah, i get that they have to narrow their focus due to the large data involved, and there's nothing wrong with the analysis they performed. it tells a good story and that's the point of the analysis.

    the title is the problem: Movies Starring Women Earn More Than Male-Led Films.

    why? because it is deliberately misleading. designed to get attention. which is fine. i get it. i do. the reason they didn't title it more accurately, is simply because it isn't as provocative, imo.

    you just can't make these broad brushstroke claims with a sampling so small. so specific. well, actually you can, as they did, but it isn't entirely proved.

    i've worked with numbers, analyzing and interpreting them for consumables, my entire adult life, so i have a natural instinct to dig into reports and analyses.

    i think there are a lot of good things happening in the industry with respect to reflecting a diversity profile that better represents the world we live in. or i hope it does.

    the data is available. they could create the analysis that involves a larger sampling of films. labor intensive? yes, agreed. i think the industry probably already understands the results of the study. if someone wants to dig deeper, they probably will.

    it's an interesting read. thanks for the follow up.

    Leave a comment:


  • Southern_land
    replied
    Re: Movies Starring Women Earn More Than Male-Led Films, Study Finds

    Does the study also find that (on a whole) films with women leads still earn less than ones starring men and furthermore films starring women are less often appealing to (hetro) men thus automatically eliminating half their audience?

    I find the trouble with so many studies is they aim at a headline and they use statistics with the gay (double old meaning, not new meaning, ie happy and carefree) abandon of a circus clown.

    Leave a comment:


  • UpandComing
    replied
    Re: Movies Starring Women Earn More Than Male-Led Films, Study Finds

    Update:

    I wanted a more concrete answer to finalact4's question, so I contacted one of the researchers involved with the Hollywood Diversity report, which is released annually by UCLA. The 2018 edition examined the 200 top-grossing films of 2016. He said the following:
    "I would expect that part of the answer is just based on pure feasibility, there are very many films that are released in a year and we collect multiple data points on every film. As I am working on it right now, I can tell you that it is a labor-intensive process. Another aspect is that our goal is to capture the social impact of the films in a year, and even with our top 200 grossing films sample, we still capture some films that are not very widely distributed and which not very many audience members would likely have seen."

    Leave a comment:


  • UpandComing
    replied
    Re: Movies Starring Women Earn More Than Male-Led Films, Study Finds

    Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
    i think a more comprehensive analysis would better prove the point. the reporting is based on 350 "top grossing films." the study did not look at all released films, nor should it be that general, however, this analysis feels too narrow in scope to prove the title's claim.
    I think that most media studies (regardless of topic) limit their focus to a certain subset. Part of this is likely due to budgetary reasons -- an analysis as extensive as the one you are suggesting would require much more time and money.

    Also, I think it just makes sense to focus on the top-grossing films because they reflect popular taste. Industry people looking at this care more about the characteristics of movies that have made the most money, and the study's authors probably surmised that focusing on those provides more motivation for change.

    Leave a comment:


  • finalact4
    replied
    Re: Movies Starring Women Earn More Than Male-Led Films, Study Finds

    i think a more comprehensive analysis would better prove the point. the reporting is based on 350 "top grossing films." the study did not look at all released films, nor should it be that general, however, this analysis feels too narrow in scope to prove the title's claim.

    the title of the study is deliberately misleading: Movies Starring Women Earn More Than male Let Films Study Finds. which is not what the study claims or proves, and implies they looked at all movies which they did not. they only looked at the highest grossing in each budget category as far as i can tell.

    in order to really make that claim stand up to scrutiny, i think they should have looked at all films made within a specific budget and a specific release of theaters; 3,000 would be a good start.

    is it possible that of all the films released between 2014 and 2017 that as a whole, some films with female leads underperform those with male leads? i think the answer might be yes, i do not know.

    for argument's sake, let's say a studio released 5 female lead driven films and only one successfully achieves "top grossing film" status, and the other 4 lose more money than the top grossing one gained.

    would that studio feel that female leads outperform their male counterparts? or would they be more likely to say that (from their perspective) they do not? or do they (the industry) only care about the "top grossing films?" again, i don't know.

    personally i like the story the study tells, but have to admit i would like to see something a bit more comprehensive to support their claim. undeniably female led films can be hugely successful.

    since 2014 there were over 700 films released per year for a total of +2800 films. so one could say (not that is would be a good comparison for many reasons ) that the sampling reflects only 12% of all the films made between 2014 and 2017.

    when it comes to numbers one could spin a study into many different stories just based on specifying or limiting parameters.

    i'm not denying the validity of the analysis, i just think that it is deliberately narrow in its focus.

    if i have misunderstood the analysis, which is possible, please (anyone) feel free to correct me.
    Last edited by finalact4; 12-12-2018, 03:14 PM.

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  • UpandComing
    replied
    Re: Movies Starring Women Earn More Than Male-Led Films, Study Finds

    Good article.

    It became clear to me awhile ago that many of the claims about female/PoC-led movies not being profitable were based more on bias rather than actual hard evidence. A stubborn desire to maintain the status quo. It's amazing how much people will cling to a faulty belief if it maintains a situation that keeps them comfortable.

    I know UCLA has been putting out reports about movie representation for years. But hopefully a report like this, which focuses on the bottom line (and has CAA behind it) will force some power brokers to take the issue seriously, and not just pay lip service. Then again, a part of me believes that the only way things will really change is having a younger, more enlightened generation of leadership taking the reins at studios (instead of the dinosaurs that currently run them).

    Leave a comment:


  • Movies Starring Women Earn More Than Male-Led Films, Study Finds

    "The perception that it's not good business to have female leads is not true,- said Christy Haubegger, a C.A.A. agent who was part of the research team. "They're a marketing asset.-

    .....

    "A lot of times in our business there is a lot of bias disguising itself as knowledge,- Haubegger said.

    --------

    I discussed this exact issue with people here on DD years ago.

    Some claimed that "obviously" the reason there weren't more female-lead movies was that someone in Hollywood had crunched the numbers and decided they didn't make economic sense.

    The assumption was that all businesses are run by rational, objective people who are free of biases.

    This is obviously bullshit. Otherwise, there would be no need for laws against discrimination, and no one would ever win a discrimination case.

    Can we now PLEASE retire the myth that Hollywood fails to make female (and PoC) lead movies for economic reasons?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/11/m...ncy-study.html
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