The Official Nicholl Debate Thread

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  • The Official Nicholl Debate Thread

    Here you go.

    I read a bunch of that stuff about Nicholl and the argument seems to break down into two camps.

    Camp 1. The Nicholl is the most meaningful contest out there and you should enter it because it will give you a good shot at launching your career. The most vocal supporters appear to include those who have won it, and those who make their living from it.

    Camp 2. The Nicholl isn't really that big a deal. Dogtown and maybe some other people.

    I am going to play Devil's advocate here and take an entirely different position. Here goes; if your metric for success is that a program help more of the "right kind of people" than it hurts, then the Nicholl is bad.

    The Nicholl is supposed to provide a career boost for amateur writers who want to break in to the business. Approximately five thousand people a year enter the contest, one out of a thousand gets a fellowship. The Nicholl, for whatever reason, generally chooses what I think most people in town would consider to be "non-commercial" scripts. So, it is rewarding people who will be less likely to convert the win to a successful career. In doing so, it may well be discouraging people with more commercial instincts who might be able to better leverage the success of the Nicholl exposure into a sustainable career. If you have a commercial script, let's say a sexy teen thriller, you may well be so discouraged by failing to advance in the Nicholl that you mistakenly conclude that your script sucks and has no shot, when in fact the marketplace is more interested in your script than the Nicholl judges are.

    I know, it's a ridiculous position, I am a big fan of the Nicholl and everything that they do. But, it's fun to discuss, isn't it?

  • #2
    Re: The Official Nicholl Debate Thread

    Originally posted by SBScript View Post
    Here you go.

    I read a bunch of that stuff about Nicholl and the argument seems to break down into two camps.

    Camp 1. The Nicholl is the most meaningful contest out there and you should enter it because it will give you a good shot at launching your career. The most vocal supporters appear to include those who have won it, and those who make their living from it.

    Camp 2. The Nicholl isn't really that big a deal. Dogtown and maybe some other people.

    I am going to play Devil's advocate here and take an entirely different position. Here goes; if your metric for success is that a program help more of the "right kind of people" than it hurts, then the Nicholl is bad.

    The Nicholl is supposed to provide a career boost for amateur writers who want to break in to the business. Approximately five thousand people a year enter the contest, one out of a thousand gets a fellowship. The Nicholl, for whatever reason, generally chooses what I think most people in town would consider to be "non-commercial" scripts. So, it is rewarding people who will be less likely to convert the win to a successful career. In doing so, it may well be discouraging people with more commercial instincts who might be able to better leverage the success of the Nicholl exposure into a sustainable career. If you have a commercial script, let's say a sexy teen thriller, you may well be so discouraged by failing to advance in the Nicholl that you mistakenly conclude that your script sucks and has no shot, when in fact the marketplace is more interested in your script than the Nicholl judges are.

    I know, it's a ridiculous position, I am a big fan of the Nicholl and everything that they do. But, it's fun to discuss, isn't it?
    "Armored" was a commercial script that was a finalist...I think there have been a few over the years...If a writer wins the Nicholl it gives him some visibility allowing him to be seen over the trillions of other writers trying to get a break...Even if it's just for a moment and even if the writer never makes anything out of it, not sure how that can hurt. Winning isn't a bad thing by any means.

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    • #3
      Re: The Official Nicholl Debate Thread

      Originally posted by Gillyflower Cooms View Post
      "Armored" was a commercial script that was a finalist...I think there have been a few over the years...If a writer wins the Nicholl it gives him some visibility allowing him to be seen over the trillions of other writers trying to get a break...Even if it's just for a moment and even if the writer never makes anything out of it, not sure how that can hurt. Winning isn't a bad thing by any means.
      I completely agree with you that winning it is a good thing for the winner. Interestingly, it seems that the Nicholl is actually a good contest for folks who otherwise probably wouldn't get any exposure because of the nature of their material to get exposure. Converting that into a career may be something different all together.

      Anyway, I love the Nicholl. I think it's a good thing to provide encouragement for writers. Just for the purpose of debate I'm taking the position that in truth it may, on balance, be bad for more people than it is good.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The Official Nicholl Debate Thread

        I've never entered the Nicholl expecting to win and I'm sort of perplexed by people who do. I only entered to challenge myself. I wrote for a long time before I even tried to enter. The first year I entered I flat out didn't make the quarter finals. The next year I rewrote the same script and almost made the cut. If I make the quarterfinals this year, I'll be elated that I've steadily improved over the last three years.

        But if you enter to win, you'll always be disappointed.
        Chicks Who Script podcast

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The Official Nicholl Debate Thread

          Originally posted by emily blake View Post
          I've never entered the Nicholl expecting to win and I'm sort of perplexed by people who do. I only entered to challenge myself. I wrote for a long time before I even tried to enter. The first year I entered I flat out didn't make the quarter finals. The next year I rewrote the same script and almost made the cut. If I make the quarterfinals this year, I'll be elated that I've steadily improved over the last three years.

          But if you enter to win, you'll always be disappointed.
          I don't think using a contest to judge your growth is very accurate...I entered a script one year and was a semi-finalist...I entered the same script the following year with a different title and didn't even make quarters. I think that says more about the subjectivity of it all than my writing skills.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The Official Nicholl Debate Thread

            Originally posted by Gillyflower Cooms View Post
            I don't think using a contest to judge your growth is very accurate...I entered a script one year and was a semi-finalist...I entered the same script the following year with a different title and didn't even make quarters. I think that says more about the subjectivity of it all than my writing skills.
            I've heard of that happening quite a bit. A friend of mine was a finalist with a script that missed out on the quarters twice. But I still see it as an opportunity for growth. I don't hate on myself if I don't advance, but I know I'm headed in the right direction if I do.

            What worries me are the people who are wigging out about the thing or planning how they'll spend all their winnings.
            Chicks Who Script podcast

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The Official Nicholl Debate Thread

              If (and I'm going here because of the position you took for this thread) Nicholl's rewards scripts that are less commercial then it is a good thing.

              More commercial scripts already have a big contest - it's called the market. If you write a great commercial script you win when it sells.

              If (as you postulate) Nicholl's rewards the minority of great writer's who otherwise wouldn't get read, then it is doing a good thing.

              You and I discussed one of my scripts at some length on the phone last year. It is a very commercial script, but a lousy entry for Nicholl's. However, by virtue of your interest it already progressed to some degree in the real contest - market sales.
              If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base.
              Dave Barry

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              • #8
                Re: The Official Nicholl Debate Thread

                I entered it because I can't get read.

                Placing might help with that.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The Official Nicholl Debate Thread

                  Originally posted by emily blake View Post
                  I've never entered the Nicholl expecting to win and I'm sort of perplexed by people who do. I only entered to challenge myself. I wrote for a long time before I even tried to enter. The first year I entered I flat out didn't make the quarter finals. The next year I rewrote the same script and almost made the cut. If I make the quarterfinals this year, I'll be elated that I've steadily improved over the last three years.

                  But if you enter to win, you'll always be disappointed.
                  For some reason I thought you were one of the pro writers here.

                  Your posts are usually very funny. I hope you're writing comedy.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The Official Nicholl Debate Thread

                    Stop the insanity. if you can write. you can write. holyhell batman.
                    You only get one chance to rewrite it 100 times.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The Official Nicholl Debate Thread

                      Originally posted by emily blake View Post
                      I've never entered the Nicholl expecting to win and I'm sort of perplexed by people who do. I only entered to challenge myself. I wrote for a long time before I even tried to enter. The first year I entered I flat out didn't make the quarter finals. The next year I rewrote the same script and almost made the cut. If I make the quarterfinals this year, I'll be elated that I've steadily improved over the last three years.

                      But if you enter to win, you'll always be disappointed.
                      how did you know that you "almost made the cut?" just wondering.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The Official Nicholl Debate Thread

                        Originally posted by Centurio View Post
                        If (and I'm going here because of the position you took for this thread) Nicholl's rewards scripts that are less commercial then it is a good thing.

                        More commercial scripts already have a big contest - it's called the market. If you write a great commercial script you win when it sells.

                        If (as you postulate) Nicholl's rewards the minority of great writer's who otherwise wouldn't get read, then it is doing a good thing.

                        You and I discussed one of my scripts at some length on the phone last year. It is a very commercial script, but a lousy entry for Nicholl's. However, by virtue of your interest it already progressed to some degree in the real contest - market sales.
                        Centurio makes a really good point.

                        Similarly, yhe Oscars aren't about rewarding what was the most commercially successful film. What would be the point if it was? Sure, box office has some impact on the awards, but it's about trying to recognize superlative talent.

                        The Nicholl contest isn't about determining the most marketable script, and if it was, the Nicholl contest would be pointless.

                        It's about determining the most talented writers not currently working in the industry, and about highlight the kinds of scripts that should be made into movies, even if at times the basic premise doesn't scream dollar bills.

                        Nicholl has a track record that speaks well, and it does unquestionably open doors and provide opportunities... but just like the Oscars, even an award doesn't promise greater success.

                        It's up to the writer to turn opportunity into success, by whatever means he or she chooses.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: The Official Nicholl Debate Thread

                          Originally posted by cupertinoCA View Post
                          how did you know that you "almost made the cut?" just wondering.
                          They send you a PS if you were close. I forget what it actually says, but I didn't get the PS the year before.

                          originally posted by iggy:
                          For some reason I thought you were one of the pro writers here.
                          Your posts are usually very funny. I hope you're writing comedy.
                          Thanks! I'm working on my first comedy now, but I write action.

                          I'm repped but unsold. I'm twiddling my thumbs on a project I hope will be approved and then I'll be out of Nicholl eligibility, but for the moment I still qualify.
                          Chicks Who Script podcast

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: The Official Nicholl Debate Thread

                            ohhh. cool. thanks.

                            i guess the lesson is not to be discouraged if a writer doesn't make it in the nicholl. if s/he believes in the script, keep sending it out...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: The Official Nicholl Debate Thread

                              Originally posted by THEUGLYDUCKLING View Post
                              Stop the insanity. if you can write. you can write. holyhell batman.
                              What do you mean?

                              Some people can write dialogue but can't write an original story.

                              Some people can write an original story but don't have the ability to structure, can't create or control tension or pacing.

                              Some people can write great character studies and that's it.

                              Some people can write great one-liners but can't write character or story.

                              You could focus on any component of a script and find writers who are good at that and nothing else.

                              Comment

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