Confessions of a Contest Judge

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  • #46
    Re: Confessions of a Contest Judge

    I do understand. I've read for contests, including SSC (no, not this year).

    My point was that it would be easy to dismiss that script because, based on the first few pages, it seems merely competent. I mean, we've seen this situation before; we've seen it done better.

    And if we're looking for the best of the best, well, hey, no reason to read on, right? Odds are -- based simply on those first three pages -- there are at least twenty scripts in the competition that are better, and our job is to advance about that many scripts (let's say).

    But if we read on, we might be surprised.

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    • #47
      Re: Confessions of a Contest Judge

      Originally posted by SuperScribe View Post
      But if we read on, we might be surprised.
      Like on p. 9, when the story really gets going in a way I didn't expect. And now I want to finish it because of the first ten pages.

      I understand what you mean about being easy to dismiss after the first three. But if we're advancing 20 (from a pool of, oh, say a hundred?) the first few pages isn't to find the top 20, just the bottom 20. Maybe bottom 50. Maybe more. Then read more pages as necessary - that makes sense to me. But I never judged. I've just read a lot of scripts that started bad and ended worse.

      SuperScribe, when you judged competitions, did you read every page? If so, did scripts surprise you at the end? If you didn't read everything, why not? Don't want to be snarky, just want to understand judging better.

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      • #48
        Re: Confessions of a Contest Judge

        Oh look, a dead horse!


        *kick*



        And an excessive period just for good measure. Just a dash of snark.






        .

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        • #49
          Re: Confessions of a Contest Judge

          killertv -

          I was mostly just responding to the idea that it's fair to toss a script after three pages (if it doesn't seem to be doing much), thinking that you'll probably run into a bunch that are much better. And apparently some judges do that kinda thing.

          I won't say anything about my experience reading for SSC, but I will talk about my experience reading for another competition -- one that's completely off the beaten track and is actually state (not California) sponsored.

          1. Yes, I read every page. Even when the scripts in question seemed to be written by someone who was maybe eleven years-old and didn't understand how anyone over the age of about fifteen acted. Or someone who had never read a screenplay before and wrote in past tense, mostly exploring characters' thoughts and feelings, and didn't bother to format dialogue (i.e., the script in question was a 90 page novella). Or someone who thought that random literary allusions in dialogue coupled with incoherent action lines made his/her script brilliant. Or someone who wrote a pretty pedestrian story in a genre newer writers love and seemed to be coasting through familiar scenes at least semi-competently until about sixty pages in when he/she apparently decided to write the last forty pages in about forty minutes, sometimes not even bothering to use punctuation, finish words or properly format dialogue. Or someone who wrote conversation after conversation in which characters talked about what they were doing as they were doing it (no action lines) -- and what they were doing was taking out the trash or eating dinner or watching TV.

          I read every page.

          2. I remember one script I was so-so on absolutely blowing me away at the end. (I didn't give it a strong enough grade to advance it, but in my feedback I did note how cool the ending was.) And another I was ready to advance completely fucking up the last forty or so pages. Another I remember seemed really rushed and unbelievable for about twenty pages and then came together in some very surprising ways. And yet another seemed well written for about five pages, and then showed that the writer didn't understand how people in their thirties act. And I don't mean the way Apatow turns thirty-year-olds into twenty-year-olds. I mean the characters in this script didn't act the way people really act. So, yeah, some scripts were uneven and drastically changed for better or worse after a certain point.

          Most scripts were pretty consistent one way or the other, though. And a few were damned well written... though not really good enough to compete in the professional arena.

          3. I was tempted to close a number of the scripts and not read on. Very tempted. Believe me. There's a point you reach where you wonder if the writer is just fucking with you. And then you remember that some of your entrants ARE eleven years-old. Or that they've never seen a screenplay before. (Even though we were directed to disqualify scripts that weren't formatted even remotely properly, I still read every page.) Or that they enjoy writing while higher than shit and were maybe trying to channel their favorite surrealist filmmakers, albeit unsuccessfully. So my feedback (a requirement for this competition) reflected all of that.

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          • #50
            Re: Confessions of a Contest Judge

            @SuperScribe

            Thank you. You seem like the nicest judge ever or a glutton for punishment. Either way, thanks for sharing - I learned something from that. Hope that state's in better economic shape than Cali at least

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            • #51
              Re: Confessions of a Contest Judge

              Don't plant a halo above my head just yet, KTV.

              But thank you.

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              • #52
                Re: Confessions of a Contest Judge

                Just to be on record, I completely understand why readers want to not read the entire screenplay. I've read some screenplays that were torture. And there are times when you absolutely know early on that the writer can't write. I would just rather the bulk of screenplays be read. I don't mind examples of the exception. But like I said, the larger share should be read.



                .

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                • #53
                  Re: Confessions of a Contest Judge

                  Originally posted by killertv View Post
                  What's the point of even having contests then?
                  With a couple of exceptions, I'm pretty sure the point is to generate revenue for the contest holders.

                  Perhaps I am cynical, but I just don't believe that they are all set up to 'champion the writer'.
                  "Only nothing is impossible."
                  - Grant Morrison

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                  • #54
                    Re: Confessions of a Contest Judge

                    Originally posted by killertv View Post
                    There are a couple assumptions here as well, the biggest one being the idea that every script only gets ten pages.

                    That's not true. Only the BAD scripts get just ten pages. And I mean really bad.
                    Okay, maybe this is true. But the way it's presented seems like EVERY script gets the ten page treatment, then the "good ones" may get more pages read in later rounds.

                    As stated, you can tell a bad script from ten pages, but you can't tell a good one.

                    Originally posted by killertv View Post
                    A friend recently judged a contest and said most scripts were terrible (and he used a bad word in front of terrible...). He said maybe ten percent of what he read were competently written - you know, uses the english language, looks like a screenplay, that kind of competent.
                    If this were true, then a script that made the Semifinals (let's say top 10%) should score that high in every competition, right? Or at least the Quarterfinals (assume top 25%) for certain, no? This is most certainly not always the case.

                    I've followed scripts that are in the Finalists (or even runners-up) in one contest, only to get axed before the first round in another. A reader not reading a script seems like a pretty good explanation for this phenomenon.

                    Originally posted by killertv View Post
                    ultimately there's a lack of trust, which i get. sometimes it's warranted - most times it's not. what i find disgusting is that most people don't trust readers more than they don't trust their own opinion of their writing ability.
                    Since this is in response to my post, I'll assume you're talking to me. I haven't said a thing about my writing ability. If I suck, it still doesn't make these practices acceptable. I'm only speaking of the seemingly arbitrary process involved. But hey, maybe you're disgusted by someone else.

                    What disgusts me is when writers defend anything that makes breaking in harder for other writers. And all of these "confessions" threads are just an indication that the deck is stacked worse than most people (who think their script is being read) expect.
                    Looking to take the "Bono" off my screenname.

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                    • #55
                      Re: Confessions of a Contest Judge

                      Originally posted by ProBono Writer View Post
                      Since this is in response to my post, I'll assume you're talking to me. I haven't said a thing about my writing ability. If I suck, it still doesn't make these practices acceptable. I'm only speaking of the seemingly arbitrary process involved. But hey, maybe you're disgusted by someone else.

                      What disgusts me is when writers defend anything that makes breaking in harder for other writers. And all of these "confessions" threads are just an indication that the deck is stacked worse than most people (who think their script is being read) expect.
                      apologies, i didn't intend that to be directed at you so much as the tone of these sorts of threads. i don't disagree with you on the deck being stacked, but i get tired of hearing people talk about how this or that convention is wrong or morally reprehensible seemingly without hearing the call to make our writing better than it is. i'm not defending the practice so much as advocating the need to understand it to write through it

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                      • #56
                        Re: Confessions of a Contest Judge

                        You heard Goldman. Very little writing in screenwriting. All structure, story telling, and high concept.

                        I guess he was saying that if you want to be a real writer, you should be an author.

                        I'm an AUTEUR so I don't give a ****.

                        "Write" on.
                        Last night, Jesus appeared to me in a dream and told me that loving me is the part of His job He hates the most.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Confessions of a Contest Judge

                          Readers are human. Ish.

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                          • #58
                            Re: Confessions of a Contest Judge

                            Originally posted by instant_karma View Post
                            With a couple of exceptions, I'm pretty sure the point is to generate revenue for the contest holders.

                            Perhaps I am cynical, but I just don't believe that they are all set up to 'champion the writer'.
                            Exactly.

                            This thread is an example of a very odd, and continuing, dynamic. Two of a specific contest's judges (including the founder) admitted to tossing scripts based on the title or the first three pages. It caused a bit of a commotion.

                            The reaction since that point seems to be people pointing out that a lot of other contests will dump scripts in the first ten to thirty pages, as if that excuses what was going on in the first one.

                            No, what it does is point out that the vast majority of these contests are moneymakers first and foremost. That's it.

                            Do some of the people who do well in these contests go on to success? Sure. The kind of people whose writing stands out, and who work on their craft enough to win contests, will tend to be the ones to move to the next level. But it has little to nothing to do with those contests. No one who's anyone gives a shit about 99% of them.

                            The contest that counts is selling a script or getting hired. All of this "contest season" and handicapping of the various contests is nuts. Work a script until it's perfect. Query the hell out of it. While you're doing that, be writing the next script. If Austin or Disney or Nicholl or trackingb rolls around, send your latest script in if you've got 50 bucks to burn.

                            Save the money you would have spent on entry fees on the other ones and take an extension class at UCLA. Or take a trip so you've got something to write about.

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                            • #59
                              Re: Confessions of a Contest Judge

                              All of the above are symptomatic of larger problems.


                              1. The funnel which screenplays go through to become films is very, very small.
                              2. Talent is not the only (and possibly not the most important) factor involved in who gets the paying gigs.
                              3. Tens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of writers want to get into a system that does not allow one percent of the whole to get in.
                              4. Cottage Industries (in this case screenplay contests) come into existence to try to exploit the above and make money off of those trying to get in.
                              5. The enormous number of writers trying to get in produces an enormous (and impossible) number of screenplays to be evaluated.
                              6. Those cottage industries cut corners in order to fulfill their mandate (to make money).
                              7. Word gets out that these contests are cutting corners because they otherwise don't have the resources to read all the screenplays they've promised to read.
                              8. Writers are outraged and debate the subject on the internet.



                              I don't see any way to solve the above without remaking the entire Hollywood business model.




                              .

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                              • #60
                                Re: Confessions of a Contest Judge

                                The solution is simple: shoot aspiring screenwriters on sight.

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