Why the Nicholl is so tough.

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  • #46
    Re: Why the Nicholl is so tough.

    Originally posted by lobster View Post
    Greg, you have been way more than patient with "Gary" and I think you're right to give him the boot. He posts falsehoods about Nicholl, maligns everyone who tries to reason with him, and worst of all, has said some things that could be interpreted as veiled threats (like, pointing out to people the dangers of posting under their real names; why is that?)

    At the same time, I feel sorry for him. He exhibits classic paranoid delusional behavior and most likely needs to be under the care of a mental health professional. I truly hope he has a friend or family member who can manage to steer him in that direction. But as long as he doesn't get help, anyone would be wise to stay clear of him.

    Don't be TOO sorry for him. He's probably not as delusional as we all think he is. I have his script - his real name is on it. If you google his real name + troll, you find quotes such as "at my level, trolling is an art form". He's just playing a game.

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    • #47
      Re: Why the Nicholl is so tough.

      Originally posted by thought_arcade View Post
      Don't be TOO sorry for him. He's probably not as delusional as we all think he is. I have his script - his real name is on it. If you google his real name + troll, you find quotes such as "at my level, trolling is an art form". He's just playing a game.

      I suspected that. I called him a "parody poster" on there and that is what he is. He's exagerating every minor concern a screewriter might have with the entire Hollywood system, and transposing it onto Nicholl. He's just starved for attention and relishes in the notoriety. Ignoring him is the best thing to do. Second of course only to banning him and relieving us all of the noise polution he is spewing.

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      • #48
        Re: Why the Nicholl is so tough.

        Originally posted by thought_arcade View Post
        Don't be TOO sorry for him. He's probably not as delusional as we all think he is. I have his script - his real name is on it. If you google his real name + troll, you find quotes such as "at my level, trolling is an art form". He's just playing a game.
        Still, you have to wonder about the mental state of anyone who thinks making a total ass of himself on a site like Nicholl FB is entertaining.

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        • #49
          Re: Why the Nicholl is so tough.

          Originally posted by P-jay View Post
          Still, you have to wonder about the mental state of anyone who thinks making a total ass of himself on a site like Nicholl FB is entertaining.

          That's true.

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          • #50
            Re: Why the Nicholl is so tough.

            Originally posted by gregbeal View Post
            I've probably tried to explain this on this forum at some point in the past. Here's a short version:

            Hundreds and hundreds of scripts entered into the Nicholl competition are relatively close together in terms of story, storytelling, craft, writing, etc. Each year, some scripts truly stand out and, if the writer remains eligible and resubmits, the script advances multiple years in a row.

            But most good scripts entered in the Nicholl competition don't truly stand out. Reaching the quarterfinals or only placing among the top 20% or somwhere in between has much more to do with the subjective nature of the reading and judging of scripts. Your subject matter hits the wheelhouse of a reader - higher score. The same subject reaches a reader who doesn't have a natural interest in it - perhaps a lower score.

            The difference between the different upper levels is usually only a few points split between two readers on a 100 point scale. Receive an 82/81 from two readers and the script advances. Receive an 81/81 (this year) and it does not. Receive a 75/75 and you're somewhere near the dividing line between top 10% and top 15%.

            Quite easy to move between the upper and middle reaches if you enter over mulltiple years. And writers have moved up and down, back and forth, over years. In no particular order.

            Those readers - can't live with them . . .
            Greg, do you have any statistics showing the distribution of scores for this year's 6,700+ entries? Even a few broad figures would be interesting, like what percentage scored less than 50, 50-69, 70-84, 85-89, and 90+ or whatever bands are easiest or make most sense.

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            • #51
              Re: Why the Nicholl is so tough.

              Okay, back to the original question:


              Why is Nicholl so tough?


              I'll state it bluntly. The Nicholl Fellowship is the most prestigious amateur screenplay "competition" in the world. You are competing against the most talented amateur screenwriters in the world. Period. And for those of you who want to debunk this, and who say screenwriters make it in Hollywood without ever doing well at Nicholl, your arguments don't carry much weight with me. All you are telling me is that you (or they) found another way to make it into Hollywood. And beating the best amateur screenwriters in the world in the Nicholl Fellowship wasn't it. That's all you are telling me.


              Enough with the talks of subjectivity. Enough with the suggestions and attempts at explaining why one screenplay might do well in one year, but not quite make it another year.


              Water finds it's level. If you enter enough times, your screenplay will either place, or it won't place. You will get enough reads that the subjectivity factor won't mean much at all. The more reads you get, the less subjectivity plays into it. And you will know where your screenplay stands versus the best screenplays offered by amateur screenwriters around the world. And if your screenplay places more than once, then you get the validation that comes with that. The more the better.


              It's as plain and simple as that.


              Now of course, if you want my "it's complicated" answer, I can give that as well. For instance:


              I have a screenplay that does well at Austin nearly every year, but can't dent Nicholl.
              I have another screenplay that does well at Page nearly every year as well, but has only dented Nicholl once.
              On the other hand, I have one screenplay that has placed at least in the quarterfinals at Nicholl five times.


              In other words, I have screenplays that do well at Nicholl, and others that do well in other places.


              So, something can be said for each major competition looking for something "different." There is certainly something to that.


              There you have it. It's simple, but it's complicated. LOL


              .
              Last edited by ; 08-09-2011, 08:46 PM.

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              • #52
                Re: Why the Nicholl is so tough.

                I'm surprised so many people enter the same script in various contests year after year, especially if it did well. Without trying to sound rude, what, exactly, is the point?

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                • #53
                  Re: Why the Nicholl is so tough.

                  Ken, may I ask how much effort you've put into querying with these award-winning scripts of yours? Do you have an agent or manager? Have you optioned any of your work?

                  I'm just wondering if you've lost sight of the goal. Isn't your goal to get your work produced? Or is it to win a Nicholl Fellowship? The latter is a perfectly reasonable goal, but it may or may not help you that much with the former.

                  I'm trying to say, your work has been validated by three major screenplay contests multiple times. If you've queried management and production companies with these results, haven't you gotten any read requests? It just seems like if you really spend some time querying, or networking in person (if you live in LA or have time and money to go to film fests), you ought to be able to get a producer interested in one of these well-written scripts.

                  Honestly, I know at least a couple of people with far less contest success than you who have gotten a feature produced after querying production companies.

                  If everyone waited till they won a Nicholl Fellowship before deciding that their writing was good enough to seek production, there would be precious few working writers in Hollywood.

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                  • #54
                    Re: Why the Nicholl is so tough.

                    Originally posted by cvolante View Post
                    I'm surprised so many people enter the same script in various contests year after year, especially if it did well. Without trying to sound rude, what, exactly, is the point?

                    I can only speak for myself. But first, you have to understand the following:


                    1. The "same script" doesn't mean the same draft. I re-write all of my screenplays on a continuous basis. Hopefully, each draft is better than the previous.
                    2. I don't consider my screenplays to have successfully competed in a competition until it reaches at a minimum, the finals.
                    3. The more placements in a competion, the more validation I recieve as a writer.
                    4. The more placements I can put on my queries, the better for marketing purposes.
                    5. My ultimate goal is to WIN the competion, not to just place in it.
                    6. Ultimately competitions market themselves as a stepping stone to making it into the Hollywood system. Since I want in, I enter these competitons.


                    And on, and on.


                    I have spent ten years writing screenplays, and I will continue to write as long as I have breath in me. It gives me a great deal of satisfaction to see my hard work recognized in competitions, and I hope one day to get satisfaction out of seeing my screenplays produced into movies.


                    If someone wants to pay me to stop entering Amateur competitions, I am willing to accept that payment. The going price for that (to make me inelligible for Nicholl) is $5,000. As for other competitions and their policies regarding eligibility, I am willing to negotiate on their terms as well.


                    .
                    Last edited by ; 08-09-2011, 10:21 PM.

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                    • #55
                      Re: Why the Nicholl is so tough.

                      Originally posted by lobster View Post
                      Ken, may I ask how much effort you’ve put into querying with these award-winning scripts of yours? Do you have an agent or manager? Have you optioned any of your work?

                      I’m just wondering if you’ve lost sight of the goal. Isn’t your goal to get your work produced? Or is it to win a Nicholl Fellowship? The latter is a perfectly reasonable goal, but it may or may not help you that much with the former.

                      I’m trying to say, your work has been validated by three major screenplay contests multiple times. If you’ve queried management and production companies with these results, haven’t you gotten any read requests? It just seems like if you really spend some time querying, or networking in person (if you live in LA or have time and money to go to film fests), you ought to be able to get a producer interested in one of these well-written scripts.

                      Honestly, I know at least a couple of people with far less contest success than you who have gotten a feature produced after querying production companies.

                      If everyone waited till they won a Nicholl Fellowship before deciding that their writing was good enough to seek production, there would be precious few working writers in Hollywood.

                      Well, I haven't won any competion. Though I've made the finals of three major competitions, and the semi-finals of several others.


                      I am like most screenwriters. I've sent hundreds of queries, and received a scant few replies back. I've sent some screenplays out, yes, but to me, 95 percent of Hollywood remains a locked door.


                      In fact, I have a great story to tell... I sent a query to a major agency in Hollywood. Can't remember which one, but I could look it up. I had all kinds of accolades in the query, and actually, it was a very polished query. Anyway, I received their "reply" in the mail about two weeks later. That reply was:


                      Arriving in a large envelope by registered mail ($4.50 postage!) my "unopened" query letter, accompanied by a form letter. The form letter said, "We did not open your query. Please don't mail us again."


                      LOL This company spends $4.50 per query letter to reject people!


                      As for what's next for me, I am planning to move to Southern California and make another run at the ramparts.

                      .
                      Last edited by ; 08-09-2011, 10:23 PM.

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                      • #56
                        Re: Why the Nicholl is so tough.

                        Ken, this is just a thought as I, too, wonder why writers keep entering the (essentially) same scripts year after year: when it comes down to the wire, which I imagine is Semi-Finals, top names in Hollywood are reading the Nicholl scripts as I understand it; two questions: 1) do these judges come and go as I imagine readers might; and 2) have they seen (and tired of) your script already?

                        Industry judges used by the contest have seen it all in terms of scripts I'd imagine. They're probably looking for fresh and new stories they haven't encountered before, and stories they haven't seen hundreds of times on the tracking boards. To the extent the semi or finals judges serve the Nicholl year after year, isn't this a legitimate concern? Your screenplay could be better than your competitor's, but it may not seem as intriguing or interesting if considered to be old-hat. Does the Nicholl regularly change the industry judges?

                        Good luck to you.
                        Last edited by Scriptonian; 08-10-2011, 07:14 AM.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Why the Nicholl is so tough.

                          Originally posted by Scriptonian View Post
                          Ken, this is just a thought as I, too, wonder why writers keep entering the (essentially) same scripts year after year: when it comes down to the wire, which I imagine is Semi-Finals, top names in Hollywood are reading the Nicholl scripts as I understand it; two questions: 1) do these judges come and go as I imagine readers might; and 2) have they seen (and tired of) your script already?

                          Industry judges used by the contest have seen it all in terms of scripts I'd imagine. They're probably looking for fresh and new stories they haven't encountered before, and stories they haven't seen hundreds of times on the tracking boards. To the extent the semi or finals judges serve the Nicholl year after year, isn't this a legitimate concern? Your screenplay could be better than your competitor's, but it may not seem as intriguing or interesting if considered to be old-hat. Does the Nicholl regularly change the industry judges?

                          Good luck to you.
                          Given Greg's efforts to direct re-submitted screenplays to new readers, I doubt this would be a problem unless you were a finalist two years running. Then, yes, it's likely some of the people reading your script would have read it before. That might be a bad thing, as you say; but it could be a good thing too. Suppose they loved your script the first time round but thought it was let down by the ending. If they now read it with an ending they love, they may shout eureka! and champion your script all the way to the finish.

                          Bottom line, though, is this. If I had a script that reached the finals but didn't win a fellowship, and I'd improved it since, why wouldn't I re-submit it if I was still eligible? To save thirty bucks?

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                          • #58
                            Re: Why the Nicholl is so tough.

                            Originally posted by Scriptonian View Post
                            Ken, this is just a thought as I, too, wonder why writers keep entering the (essentially) same scripts year after year: when it comes down to the wire, which I imagine is Semi-Finals, top names in Hollywood are reading the Nicholl scripts as I understand it; two questions: 1) do these judges come and go as I imagine readers might; and 2) have they seen (and tired of) your script already?

                            Industry judges used by the contest have seen it all in terms of scripts I'd imagine. They're probably looking for fresh and new stories they haven't encountered before, and stories they haven't seen hundreds of times on the tracking boards. To the extent the semi or finals judges serve the Nicholl year after year, isn't this a legitimate concern? Your screenplay could be better than your competitor's, but it may not seem as intriguing or interesting if considered to be old-hat. Does the Nicholl regularly change the industry judges?

                            Good luck to you.

                            Well, I suppose we're getting into "it's complicated" territory here.


                            First, I have never made the finals in Nicholl, so I have no idea how they are treated by the industry. I imagine they are treated better than I am. LOL I have made the semi-finals once, but that was a while ago, and I had fewer screenplays total, and to be quite honest, not nearly the experience I do now in this game.


                            I view it this way, with every read, there is possibility. I remember a few years ago (2007, I believe) I got a call from a contest reader. He told me he had read my screenplay in (I think) the Slamdance Screenplay competition. He said he loved my screenplay, and asked if he could "shop it around." I said "sure! Go right ahead!" Well, over the course of a few months of "shopping it around" and many emails back and forth, nothing came of it and that possibility died. Oh well.


                            I've gotten reads based on my contest experience, but nothing super, super major. I still hope for that.


                            As for getting my screenplay read "too many times" by the same readers, I don't think that is a concern. In contests, I seriously doubt the same readers are reading my screenplays from year to year. As for industry people, I've pretty much dealt with bottom feaders and a few scant reputable companies. As far as I know, there is only one company that each year requests the same screenplay. No problem, I send it anyway and hope they like my latest version.


                            As to entering "essentially" the same screenplays, I really like to think my re-writes have improved my screenplays. To me, making my screenplays one percent better is HUGE. And if I can do this continuously, all the better. When you are in the top 3 percent trying to get into the top 1 percent, or the top 1 percent, trying to get into the industry, fine tuning and tweaking is critical.


                            I do have screenplays that don't perform as well as my best three, and I am trying to get them to another level so I can get better results out of them. For me, I am doing my best to continually improve the screenplays I have, so they can do better, and to eventually write another. Right now I am re-writing (almost a page one re-write) a Romantic Comedy I have that at the moment, isn't very good. I will also add that this year I have done major re-writes to five screenplays. Not fine tuning, but major re-writes. I sent each screenplay to someone I trust in the industry (Yes, I paid for his services) and the feedback he gave was spectacular. And I based my re-writes on the gears in my head his feedback set in motion, and the creativity in me that produced.


                            So that's it. I will continue to compete until I either drop dead, or make it into Hollywood.


                            .
                            Last edited by ; 08-10-2011, 11:07 AM.

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                            • #59
                              Re: Why the Nicholl is so tough.

                              Well, I've had a script that was a Nicholl Finalist and then the next year nothing beyond the Quarters (can't remember if I changed much with the script though).

                              I also recall a story from a Nicholl Fellow that I met at the dinner (if I get this correct) . . . she had a Finalist script one year and one of the committee members gave her a whole bunch of detailed notes for improvement and supposedly talked her ear off about the project (all with the best of intentions for helping a neophyte writer). So the next year she re-submits the script without changing a single word and this time she wins a Fellowship.

                              Moral of this story? Beats me. It's a universe of chaos, I guess.

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                              • #60
                                Re: Why the Nicholl is so tough.

                                Originally posted by acquaformosa View Post
                                Well, I've had a script that was a Nicholl Finalist and then the next year nothing beyond the Quarters (can't remember if I changed much with the script though).

                                I also recall a story from a Nicholl Fellow that I met at the dinner (if I get this correct) . . . she had a Finalist script one year and one of the committee members gave her a whole bunch of detailed notes for improvement and supposedly talked her ear off about the project (all with the best of intentions for helping a neophyte writer). So the next year she re-submits the script without changing a single word and this time she wins a Fellowship.

                                Moral of this story? Beats me. It's a universe of chaos, I guess.
                                You left out the part about the committee member being two-time Academy Award winning screenwriter, former WGA President and future Academy President Frank Pierson.

                                The second year he was directing Conspiracy and so didn't participate in finalist judging.

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