Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

[Aspirant]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

Did you really just post this in two places? Really?

Jeff told me I'd posted the first one in the wrong thread. I didn't want to disregard his wisdom.

[iggy]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

Jeff: Thank you so much for taking the time to speak from the mountain and inform me that what I'm saying is bullshit. However, though you are obviously familiar with the concept, it's not pontificating for someone else to express a reasonable opinion, even if you disagree. I appreciated your multicolored fonts, but don't patronize me, okay? I've tried to treat you with respect -- how about showing a little in return? I may not be a pro, but I've been at this for four years, I've got solid representation, and I've got a script going out which has already attracted a lot of attention. I'm not just starting out, and even though I lack your experience, I have a pretty good handle on it.

The idea that new writers have any less leeway than established pros drives you bonkers, for some unfathomable reason. I already knew that. But here's the thing, Jeff -- all the pros do not share your views. They do not all speak with one voice on this or most of the other subjects on which you proclaim the "truth" (always with your trademark touch of exasperation). I'm not a pro, but my managers -- guys who I'm sure you do respect -- definitely are. They believe and have told me directly that it's especially incumbent on a new writer to make sure that his script conforms as closely as possible to traditional standards, because new writers are unproven commodities who need to show that they can write professionally when first being introduced to the marketplace. This includes, for example, the need to try to keep a script under 120 pages (under 115, ideally) -- another thing you think is nonsense. I'm sure you think the CONT'D issue they raised with me, which I alluded to earlier, is absurd as well. So perhaps I should go back and tell them that they don't know what they're talking about because Jeff Lowell declared on Done Deal that rules don't matter and that a brand new writer stands on the exact same footing as an established pro when it comes to disregarding well-established screenwriting conventions. Or maybe you should try to accept the fact that you don't speak for all the pros and stop insulting everyone you deem unworthy of presenting a differing viewpoint.

Did you really just post this in two places? Really?

[nojustice]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

They listen to them because they want to win a contest and the ones who know nothing are the loudest and the greatest in numbers which makes them convincing, and they look for safety in numbers, so they let themselves get sucked in.

And they are putting themselves at the mercy of contest readers who more likely than not are failed writers themselves, thus dishing out bad advice in great quantities, which in turn is absorbed and accepted. It's a bad cycle all round.

But I don't think you need to make your point so forcefully. You underestimate how much you are heard.

[Aspirant]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

Jeff: Thank you so much for taking the time to speak from the mountain and inform me that what I'm saying is bullshit. However, though you are obviously familiar with the concept, it's not pontificating for someone else to express a reasonable opinion, even if you disagree. I appreciated your multicolored fonts, but don't patronize me, okay? I've tried to treat you with respect -- how about showing a little in return? I may not be a pro, but I've been at this for four years, I've got solid representation, and I've got a script going out which has already attracted a lot of attention. I'm not just starting out, and even though I lack your experience, I have a pretty good handle on it.

The idea that new writers have any less leeway than established pros drives you bonkers, for some unfathomable reason. I already knew that. But here's the thing, Jeff -- all the pros do not share your views. They do not all speak with one voice on this or most of the other subjects on which you proclaim the "truth" (always with your trademark touch of exasperation). I'm not a pro, but my managers -- guys who I'm sure you do respect -- definitely are. They believe and have told me directly that it's especially incumbent on a new writer to make sure that his script conforms as closely as possible to traditional standards, because new writers are unproven commodities who need to show that they can write professionally when first being introduced to the marketplace. This includes, for example, the need to try to keep a script under 120 pages (under 115, ideally) -- another thing you think is nonsense. I'm sure you think the CONT'D issue they raised with me, which I alluded to earlier, is absurd as well. So perhaps I should go back and tell them that they don't know what they're talking about because Jeff Lowell declared on Done Deal that rules don't matter and that a brand new writer stands on the exact same footing as an established pro when it comes to disregarding well-established screenwriting conventions. Or maybe you should try to accept the fact that you don't speak for all the pros and stop insulting everyone you deem unworthy of presenting a differing viewpoint.

[JeffLowell]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

You are overlooking the obvious.

These myths have been perpetuated by contest readers. They are the ones you should be yelling and swearing at.

Oh, the people posting here are contest readers? I missed that.

The problem isn't readers. The problem is failed writers who decide to make money by teaching new writers. To set themselves up as experts, they give out great big gobs of rules that don't exist. "Never use a song... never say 'we see..." never use a camera angle.. never bold sluglines..." Of course, they don't know that this shit doesn't matter, because they're failed writers.

And then, when you point out that everything they're saying is contradicted by hundreds of professional scripts every year, they say "oh, but beginners can't get away with it."

And then when you point out scripts that broke people in that contradict everything they're saying, they ask you why you're attacking them, or say there's an exception to every rule, or sure, that script was so good that it still got through, but what if yours is a borderline case...

I get it why beginning writers listen to those people. It's nice to have rules. The truth is terrifying: you've got to tell a great story well.

But beginning writers who then learn the actual truth from professionals and still run around spouting the imaginary "rules?"

Dante's got a special place for them.

[nojustice]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

I said the space issue "may have hurt the OP" in the contest, since the reader specifically mentioned it in his notes.

Obviously readers are making up the "rules".

[nojustice]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

No, the abuse here is what doesn't stop.

[Richmond Weems]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

You are overlooking the obvious.

These myths have been perpetuated by contest readers. They are the ones you should be yelling and swearing at.

Christ, you just don't stop, do you? Did you not read the quoted posts? Do you have to post something inane/contrary, or deliberately miss the point just to hear yourself talk? At least when I do it, it's sometimes funny.

Nevermind. Continue swimming in the quicksand.

HH

[nojustice]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

You are overlooking the obvious.

These myths have been perpetuated by contest readers. They are the ones you should be yelling and swearing at.

[JeffLowell]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

God damn it, Emily. I was blissfully unaware of this thread until you started that new one.

Aspirant, by expressing your misguided opinions, you're creating a false issue. For every script you show me with two spaces after a period, I can show you two with one. This conversation is like debating if people should bold a slug line or if you should use "we see." No one who matters cares. And in this case, if someone got eliminated from a contest for this idiotic reason, it is not a reputable contest or one worth winning anyway. I guarantee if you did one space on your next script your managers wouldn't even notice.

So often around here you see people, yourself included, perpetuate falsehoods about this business and craft that are just wrong. This type of conjecture is just not helpful. If you don't have practical experience with a subject, you don't have to express an opinion. There are people on this site who do make a living at this.

Quoted in its entirety for truth. It's fucking nuts - this forum is lucky enough to have pro writers, reps, contest heads and execs posting. And every single one of them can say "this is how it is," and you still have someone who says "I heard different, even though I have no experience."

Why? Honestly, if you want to pass out ridiculous information, join a local screenwriting group where no one knows better and be the king. Or join a forum in whatever your chosen profession is, and pontificate there.

For example:

Man, it wouldn't prove anything. Are you talking about a first script to go out? Because that's a factor -- at least in my case.

How many working professionals in every capacity in the industry have said that's not true? That the rules aren't different for new writers? But it doesn't matter - based on absolutely nothing, there's always someone willing to repeat some bullshit trope over and over and over and over...

Logic and experience apparently matter for nothing, so let me try repetition and formatting:

The rules aren't different for new writers.
The rules aren't different for new writers.
The rules aren't different for new writers.
The rules aren't different for new writers.
The rules aren't different for new writers.
The rules aren't different for new writers.

Hopefully this helped.

Jesus.

[CColoredClown]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

My head exploded because I've read a ton of strange "technical" errors on scripts that have sold for a ton of money and I'm pretty sure those errors didn't affect the buyer's decision.

One example I have is from "He's just so F'ing Perfect".

In the slugs they'd use, "INT. House- Day" instead of using "INT. House - Day".

Sure it sold to a company for whom the writer worked for, but that's not the point. If someone disqualifies you or passes on your script because of a small formatting discrepency, they're just insane. I'll go back to trying to piece my head together.

Oh, one last thing: Greg Beal and The Nicholl folks are awesome, awesome people and there's a reason they got 7,000+ entries last year; because they're good at what they do!

[emily blake]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

Let's take this period party elsewhere: http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/...423#post797423

[Aspirant]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

If you're repped by who I think, (based on who you were asking about when you joined this site) - I happen to have in my possession a script they sold for big bucks that had... one space after the period. In the event that you are not repped by the company I think you are, I bet if you sent me a PM of who reps you, I can find a script they went out with or sold that also only had one space after the period.

Look, I can craft a reasonable basis for the correct way to treat cancer, doesn't mean I'm right.

Man, it wouldn't prove anything. Are you talking about a first script to go out? Because that's a factor -- at least in my case. But it doesn't matter. The point isn't that a script can't get sold with one space after periods; it's just that two spaces are grammatically correct, so why not do that? Readers might overlook using one space -- or, as you suggest, not really care -- but I've never seen anything to suggest that one space is preferred. On the other hand, I have seen things indicating that two spaces are preferred, which I noted previously. The OP gave a specific example of a reader who said as much. Your (and other people's) reaction is that the reader must be an idiot; that he should be punched in the face. But no one even knows who this reader is or his background; no one is willing to even consider that he might be offering good advice.

Back to my own managers, I'll give you an example. When I wrote my initial draft of the script we're working on now, I didn't use character (CONT'D)s (when the character's continued dialog is on the same page in successive dialog blocks, interrupted by action lines). I'd read that their use was passe and no longer necessary. But in their first set of notes, my managers told me I should use them. I know a lot of scripts don't use (CONT'D)s (on the same page) in this way, but that's the traditional rule and my managers thought it was important enough to mention. Does it matter in some cosmic sense? Of course not. But the point is, at least some pros still care about these things.

Regarding your last comment: I know that you and some of the other pros on Done Deal get frustrated when new writers opine on things they know nothing about. I don't blame you -- in fact, I often feel the same way. It's definitely better for people to have a reasonable basis for their opinions, and I think I do. That doesn't mean my opinion is right, but I think it does mean it's sufficiently valid to be presented here. Let's allow people to decide for themselves. Based on what's been posted so far, I'd say you have the more popular side of the argument. But that doesn't necessarily make you right, either.

The sad thing about all this is that people will look at it and say, "I can't believe they're arguing about spaces after periods." To me, the larger issue, which is far more important, is about trying to write professionally, avoid creating bad impressions, and accept potentially helpful feedback. But maybe that's gotten lost along the way.

[mrjonesprods]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

I respect your experience, but we obviously have a difference of opinion. I don't know how you could have a better idea of what my managers would say than I do. My managers (who are very highly regarded) have voiced technical preferences of this nature before. Their attitude, like mine, is that while none of these technical rules are of overriding importance, the goal -- particularly for a new writer -- is to make his script as close to perfect as it can possibly be. That's all I'm advocating here. It's not simply "conjecture," and it's certainly not a "falsehood." It's just my opinion, and I think I've laid out a reasonable basis for it. But you're free to disagree; and if people value your opinion more, due to your greater experience, that's their choice.

If you're repped by who I think, (based on who you were asking about when you joined this site) - I happen to have in my possession a script they sold for big bucks that had... one space after the period. In the event that you are not repped by the company I think you are, I bet if you sent me a PM of who reps you, I can find a script they went out with or sold that also only had one space after the period.

Look, I can craft a reasonable basis for the correct way to treat cancer, doesn't mean I'm right.

[Aspirant]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

Aspirant, by expressing your misguided opinions, you're creating a false issue. For every script you show me with two spaces after a period, I can show you two with one. This conversation is like debating if people should bold a slug line or if you should use "we see." No one who matters cares. And in this case, if someone got eliminated from a contest for this idiotic reason, it is not a reputable contest or one worth winning anyway. I guarantee if you did one space on your next script your managers wouldn't even notice. So often around here you see people, yourself included, perpetuate falsehoods about this business and craft that are just wrong. This type of conjecture is just not helpful. If you don't have practical experience with a subject, you don't have to express an opinion. There are people on this site who do make a living at this.

I respect your experience, but we obviously have a difference of opinion. I don't know how you could have a better idea of what my managers would say than I do. My managers (who are very highly regarded) have voiced technical preferences of this nature before. Their attitude, like mine, is that while none of these technical rules are of overriding importance, the goal -- particularly for a new writer -- is to make his script as close to perfect as it can possibly be. That's all I'm advocating here. It's not simply "conjecture," and it's certainly not a "falsehood." It's just my opinion, and I think I've laid out a reasonable basis for it. But you're free to disagree; and if people value your opinion more, due to your greater experience, that's their choice.