Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

[NikeeGoddess]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

ridiculous! the entire discussion about it is silly. what's any of that got to do with storytelling?
and furthermore, when FD scans your script prior to printing it points out spacing errors and formatting errors and such. never once did it correct the spacing after a period. if the number 1 industry standard software doesn't care then why should you?

[Richmond Weems]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

I use three spaces 'cause I'm a rebel.

HH

[Jules]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

I use whatever best lines up my action line to the one that's above it at the time. I like the script to be as uniform as possible.

[CColoredClown]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

We're talkling about the space after a period?! ::head explodes::

[Aspirant]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

As usual, I like HH's comment the best.

One thing I don't understand about this board is why, as soon as you mention something, it's assumed that you're "fixated" on it. Or why, if you talk about proper spelling or grammar or format, or really anything perceived as a "technical" issue, somebody's "head explodes." At the risk of that ...

Figment: Two spaces may have fallen out of favor, and they're almost never used in electronic communication, but, actually, two spaces is not "wrong." I took "keyboarding" in high school, and that's what they taught, so I'm not relying on some primer from the 40's. I use Movie Magic Screenwriter software, which automatically puts two spaces after periods. Why would the program default to this if it was wrong? David Trottier, who writes "The Screenwriter's Bible," which I consider to be the most authoritative book on screenwriting in existence, uses two spaces after a period in his 5th Edition, which was published in 2010. I believe John August uses two spaces as well. Are these guys wrong, also? The caveat in the article you linked to makes all the difference. One space after a period looks bad in a non-proportional font like Courier; it makes the sentences seem to run together.

Mr. Jones: Apparently someone cares -- the OP's reader cared. And it may have hurt the OP in a contest he presumably hoped to advance in. Every once in a while I've seen scripts that use one space, and I think they are harder to read. Even if this has nothing to do with the merits of the script itself, why take a chance on irritating your readers? People want to see some white space on the page, not text all crammed together.

Emily: I'm not saying that a script should be rejected for this reason -- of course not. Perhaps most readers would overlook it. But if there's even a 1% chance that a reader would react negatively to using one space, why not use two spaces (which, whatever the rule for journalism, is correct for Courier scripts), just to avoid the issue? I'm pretty sure my managers would flag it if I turned in my next draft using just one space.

JoJo: Thanks for the advice on Hollywood. No one is going to think you're old if you use two spaces after a period. But they might think you don't know how to write professionally if you use only one.

Nikee: Spacing after a period has nothing to do with storytelling. Neither does Courier font. Or standard margins. Or putting scene headings in caps. I've never used Final Draft. If you're saying it defaults to one space, I'm surprised by that. I suspect that it merely permits you to use one space if you want, but I don't know.

CCC: Hang in there -- I'm done :-)

[iggy]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

Do you really think a contest reader would find an amazing script in their pile of amateur sludge and not advance it because the writer put one space after a period?

[Aspirant]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

Do you really think a contest reader would find an amazing script in their pile of amateur sludge and not advance it because the writer put one space after a period?

No, I think that's highly unlikely -- and it's not what I said. I said the space issue "may have hurt the OP" in the contest, since the reader specifically mentioned it in his notes. If the OP's script was amazing, then of course something like the spacing would not hold him back. So I would assume that the OP's script was NOT amazing -- at least not in the eyes of this particular reader. But that doesn't make the reader's note meaningless. Perhaps it was a borderline script, and the reader had a hard time getting into it because he was distracted by the improper format. You can say the reader shouldn't be influenced by that, but readers are human beings. Little things like this (and I readily admit, it's a little thing) can make a difference. If the OP had submitted his script on a yellow background, instead of white, that wouldn't have had anything to do with the script quality, either, but it certainly wouldn't have helped his cause.

Look, I don't lie awake at night worrying about how many spaces go after periods. But I do disagree with people who just wave all this stuff away and say, "None of it matters -- the story is all that counts." It isn't an either/or proposition -- you can write a great script AND ensure that it's technically and grammatically sound. THAT'S the script that has the best chance to succeed.

[mrjonesprods]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

Aspirant, by expressing your misguided opinions, you're creating a false issue. For every script you show me with two spaces after a period, I can show you two with one. This conversation is like debating if people should bold a slug line or if you should use "we see." No one who matters cares. And in this case, if someone got eliminated from a contest for this idiotic reason, it is not a reputable contest or one worth winning anyway. I guarantee if you did one space on your next script your managers wouldn't even notice.

So often around here you see people, yourself included, perpetuate falsehoods about this business and craft that are just wrong. This type of conjecture is just not helpful. If you don't have practical experience with a subject, you don't have to express an opinion. There are people on this site who do make a living at this.

[Aspirant]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

Aspirant, by expressing your misguided opinions, you're creating a false issue. For every script you show me with two spaces after a period, I can show you two with one. This conversation is like debating if people should bold a slug line or if you should use "we see." No one who matters cares. And in this case, if someone got eliminated from a contest for this idiotic reason, it is not a reputable contest or one worth winning anyway. I guarantee if you did one space on your next script your managers wouldn't even notice. So often around here you see people, yourself included, perpetuate falsehoods about this business and craft that are just wrong. This type of conjecture is just not helpful. If you don't have practical experience with a subject, you don't have to express an opinion. There are people on this site who do make a living at this.

I respect your experience, but we obviously have a difference of opinion. I don't know how you could have a better idea of what my managers would say than I do. My managers (who are very highly regarded) have voiced technical preferences of this nature before. Their attitude, like mine, is that while none of these technical rules are of overriding importance, the goal -- particularly for a new writer -- is to make his script as close to perfect as it can possibly be. That's all I'm advocating here. It's not simply "conjecture," and it's certainly not a "falsehood." It's just my opinion, and I think I've laid out a reasonable basis for it. But you're free to disagree; and if people value your opinion more, due to your greater experience, that's their choice.

[mrjonesprods]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

I respect your experience, but we obviously have a difference of opinion. I don't know how you could have a better idea of what my managers would say than I do. My managers (who are very highly regarded) have voiced technical preferences of this nature before. Their attitude, like mine, is that while none of these technical rules are of overriding importance, the goal -- particularly for a new writer -- is to make his script as close to perfect as it can possibly be. That's all I'm advocating here. It's not simply "conjecture," and it's certainly not a "falsehood." It's just my opinion, and I think I've laid out a reasonable basis for it. But you're free to disagree; and if people value your opinion more, due to your greater experience, that's their choice.

If you're repped by who I think, (based on who you were asking about when you joined this site) - I happen to have in my possession a script they sold for big bucks that had... one space after the period. In the event that you are not repped by the company I think you are, I bet if you sent me a PM of who reps you, I can find a script they went out with or sold that also only had one space after the period.

Look, I can craft a reasonable basis for the correct way to treat cancer, doesn't mean I'm right.

[Aspirant]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

If you're repped by who I think, (based on who you were asking about when you joined this site) - I happen to have in my possession a script they sold for big bucks that had... one space after the period. In the event that you are not repped by the company I think you are, I bet if you sent me a PM of who reps you, I can find a script they went out with or sold that also only had one space after the period.

Look, I can craft a reasonable basis for the correct way to treat cancer, doesn't mean I'm right.

Man, it wouldn't prove anything. Are you talking about a first script to go out? Because that's a factor -- at least in my case. But it doesn't matter. The point isn't that a script can't get sold with one space after periods; it's just that two spaces are grammatically correct, so why not do that? Readers might overlook using one space -- or, as you suggest, not really care -- but I've never seen anything to suggest that one space is preferred. On the other hand, I have seen things indicating that two spaces are preferred, which I noted previously. The OP gave a specific example of a reader who said as much. Your (and other people's) reaction is that the reader must be an idiot; that he should be punched in the face. But no one even knows who this reader is or his background; no one is willing to even consider that he might be offering good advice.

Back to my own managers, I'll give you an example. When I wrote my initial draft of the script we're working on now, I didn't use character (CONT'D)s (when the character's continued dialog is on the same page in successive dialog blocks, interrupted by action lines). I'd read that their use was passe and no longer necessary. But in their first set of notes, my managers told me I should use them. I know a lot of scripts don't use (CONT'D)s (on the same page) in this way, but that's the traditional rule and my managers thought it was important enough to mention. Does it matter in some cosmic sense? Of course not. But the point is, at least some pros still care about these things.

Regarding your last comment: I know that you and some of the other pros on Done Deal get frustrated when new writers opine on things they know nothing about. I don't blame you -- in fact, I often feel the same way. It's definitely better for people to have a reasonable basis for their opinions, and I think I do. That doesn't mean my opinion is right, but I think it does mean it's sufficiently valid to be presented here. Let's allow people to decide for themselves. Based on what's been posted so far, I'd say you have the more popular side of the argument. But that doesn't necessarily make you right, either.

The sad thing about all this is that people will look at it and say, "I can't believe they're arguing about spaces after periods." To me, the larger issue, which is far more important, is about trying to write professionally, avoid creating bad impressions, and accept potentially helpful feedback. But maybe that's gotten lost along the way.

[emily blake]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

Let's take this period party elsewhere: http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/...423#post797423

[CColoredClown]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

My head exploded because I've read a ton of strange "technical" errors on scripts that have sold for a ton of money and I'm pretty sure those errors didn't affect the buyer's decision.

One example I have is from "He's just so F'ing Perfect".

In the slugs they'd use, "INT. House- Day" instead of using "INT. House - Day".

Sure it sold to a company for whom the writer worked for, but that's not the point. If someone disqualifies you or passes on your script because of a small formatting discrepency, they're just insane. I'll go back to trying to piece my head together.

Oh, one last thing: Greg Beal and The Nicholl folks are awesome, awesome people and there's a reason they got 7,000+ entries last year; because they're good at what they do!

[JeffLowell]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

God damn it, Emily. I was blissfully unaware of this thread until you started that new one.

Aspirant, by expressing your misguided opinions, you're creating a false issue. For every script you show me with two spaces after a period, I can show you two with one. This conversation is like debating if people should bold a slug line or if you should use "we see." No one who matters cares. And in this case, if someone got eliminated from a contest for this idiotic reason, it is not a reputable contest or one worth winning anyway. I guarantee if you did one space on your next script your managers wouldn't even notice.

So often around here you see people, yourself included, perpetuate falsehoods about this business and craft that are just wrong. This type of conjecture is just not helpful. If you don't have practical experience with a subject, you don't have to express an opinion. There are people on this site who do make a living at this.

Quoted in its entirety for truth. It's fucking nuts - this forum is lucky enough to have pro writers, reps, contest heads and execs posting. And every single one of them can say "this is how it is," and you still have someone who says "I heard different, even though I have no experience."

Why? Honestly, if you want to pass out ridiculous information, join a local screenwriting group where no one knows better and be the king. Or join a forum in whatever your chosen profession is, and pontificate there.

For example:

Man, it wouldn't prove anything. Are you talking about a first script to go out? Because that's a factor -- at least in my case.

How many working professionals in every capacity in the industry have said that's not true? That the rules aren't different for new writers? But it doesn't matter - based on absolutely nothing, there's always someone willing to repeat some bullshit trope over and over and over and over...

Logic and experience apparently matter for nothing, so let me try repetition and formatting:

The rules aren't different for new writers.
The rules aren't different for new writers.
The rules aren't different for new writers.
The rules aren't different for new writers.
The rules aren't different for new writers.
The rules aren't different for new writers.

Hopefully this helped.

Jesus.

[nojustice]

Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

You are overlooking the obvious.

These myths have been perpetuated by contest readers. They are the ones you should be yelling and swearing at.