Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

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  • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

    Originally posted by nojustice View Post
    You are overlooking the obvious.

    These myths have been perpetuated by contest readers. They are the ones you should be yelling and swearing at.
    Christ, you just don't stop, do you? Did you not read the quoted posts? Do you have to post something inane/contrary, or deliberately miss the point just to hear yourself talk? At least when I do it, it's sometimes funny.

    Nevermind. Continue swimming in the quicksand.

    HH

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    • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

      No, the abuse here is what doesn't stop.

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      • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

        Originally posted by Aspirant View Post
        I said the space issue "may have hurt the OP" in the contest, since the reader specifically mentioned it in his notes.
        Obviously readers are making up the "rules".

        Comment


        • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

          Originally posted by nojustice View Post
          You are overlooking the obvious.

          These myths have been perpetuated by contest readers. They are the ones you should be yelling and swearing at.
          Oh, the people posting here are contest readers? I missed that.

          The problem isn't readers. The problem is failed writers who decide to make money by teaching new writers. To set themselves up as experts, they give out great big gobs of rules that don't exist. "Never use a song... never say 'we see..." never use a camera angle.. never bold sluglines..." Of course, they don't know that this shit doesn't matter, because they're failed writers.

          And then, when you point out that everything they're saying is contradicted by hundreds of professional scripts every year, they say "oh, but beginners can't get away with it."

          And then when you point out scripts that broke people in that contradict everything they're saying, they ask you why you're attacking them, or say there's an exception to every rule, or sure, that script was so good that it still got through, but what if yours is a borderline case...

          I get it why beginning writers listen to those people. It's nice to have rules. The truth is terrifying: you've got to tell a great story well.

          But beginning writers who then learn the actual truth from professionals and still run around spouting the imaginary "rules?"

          Dante's got a special place for them.

          Comment


          • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

            Jeff: Thank you so much for taking the time to speak from the mountain and inform me that what I'm saying is bullshit. However, though you are obviously familiar with the concept, it's not pontificating for someone else to express a reasonable opinion, even if you disagree. I appreciated your multicolored fonts, but don't patronize me, okay? I've tried to treat you with respect -- how about showing a little in return? I may not be a pro, but I've been at this for four years, I've got solid representation, and I've got a script going out which has already attracted a lot of attention. I'm not just starting out, and even though I lack your experience, I have a pretty good handle on it.

            The idea that new writers have any less leeway than established pros drives you bonkers, for some unfathomable reason. I already knew that. But here's the thing, Jeff -- all the pros do not share your views. They do not all speak with one voice on this or most of the other subjects on which you proclaim the "truth" (always with your trademark touch of exasperation). I'm not a pro, but my managers -- guys who I'm sure you do respect -- definitely are. They believe and have told me directly that it's especially incumbent on a new writer to make sure that his script conforms as closely as possible to traditional standards, because new writers are unproven commodities who need to show that they can write professionally when first being introduced to the marketplace. This includes, for example, the need to try to keep a script under 120 pages (under 115, ideally) -- another thing you think is nonsense. I'm sure you think the CONT'D issue they raised with me, which I alluded to earlier, is absurd as well. So perhaps I should go back and tell them that they don't know what they're talking about because Jeff Lowell declared on Done Deal that rules don't matter and that a brand new writer stands on the exact same footing as an established pro when it comes to disregarding well-established screenwriting conventions. Or maybe you should try to accept the fact that you don't speak for all the pros and stop insulting everyone you deem unworthy of presenting a differing viewpoint.

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            • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

              They listen to them because they want to win a contest and the ones who know nothing are the loudest and the greatest in numbers which makes them convincing, and they look for safety in numbers, so they let themselves get sucked in.

              And they are putting themselves at the mercy of contest readers who more likely than not are failed writers themselves, thus dishing out bad advice in great quantities, which in turn is absorbed and accepted. It's a bad cycle all round.

              But I don't think you need to make your point so forcefully. You underestimate how much you are heard.

              Comment


              • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

                Originally posted by Aspirant View Post
                Jeff: Thank you so much for taking the time to speak from the mountain and inform me that what I'm saying is bullshit. However, though you are obviously familiar with the concept, it's not pontificating for someone else to express a reasonable opinion, even if you disagree. I appreciated your multicolored fonts, but don't patronize me, okay? I've tried to treat you with respect -- how about showing a little in return? I may not be a pro, but I've been at this for four years, I've got solid representation, and I've got a script going out which has already attracted a lot of attention. I'm not just starting out, and even though I lack your experience, I have a pretty good handle on it.

                The idea that new writers have any less leeway than established pros drives you bonkers, for some unfathomable reason. I already knew that. But here's the thing, Jeff -- all the pros do not share your views. They do not all speak with one voice on this or most of the other subjects on which you proclaim the "truth" (always with your trademark touch of exasperation). I'm not a pro, but my managers -- guys who I'm sure you do respect -- definitely are. They believe and have told me directly that it's especially incumbent on a new writer to make sure that his script conforms as closely as possible to traditional standards, because new writers are unproven commodities who need to show that they can write professionally when first being introduced to the marketplace. This includes, for example, the need to try to keep a script under 120 pages (under 115, ideally) -- another thing you think is nonsense. I'm sure you think the CONT'D issue they raised with me, which I alluded to earlier, is absurd as well. So perhaps I should go back and tell them that they don't know what they're talking about because Jeff Lowell declared on Done Deal that rules don't matter and that a brand new writer stands on the exact same footing as an established pro when it comes to disregarding well-established screenwriting conventions. Or maybe you should try to accept the fact that you don't speak for all the pros and stop insulting everyone you deem unworthy of presenting a differing viewpoint.
                Did you really just post this in two places? Really?

                Comment


                • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

                  Originally posted by iggy View Post
                  Did you really just post this in two places? Really?
                  Jeff told me I'd posted the first one in the wrong thread. I didn't want to disregard his wisdom.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

                    If hyperbole becomes a genre, you're going to be an A-list writer.

                    Again with the "it's just my opinion..." It's my opinion that drinking bleach cures the common cold. Respect my opinion!

                    And let's be honest, a lot of times, your opinion sounds a lot like more than that. You're the one who told someone that if they ever want to use their script for anything but entering into contests, they should cut it under 120, because that's the professional standard. I said that under 120 is a good goal, but that some scripts need more, and found a dozen or more black list scripts over 120 to back up my point. That's it. I don't think trying to keep it under 120 is "nonsense," but I don't think it's right to run around telling strangers that it's some hard and fast rule. It's not.

                    The CONT'D issue? If my manager told me that he liked to see those, I'd put them in. Not because he's "right," but because it doesn't fucking matter, and if it makes him happy, it costs me nothing.

                    Same thing with all these piddling little issues. A couple of years ago, I had an exec tell me he wanted me to have "FADE IN" at the beginning of my script before he gave it to his boss. (I sometimes don't use it.) Did I pull a dozen Oscar winning scripts that don't have it and say "a ha!"? No. I put it in.

                    Just like writers have different styles that they like, so do execs and reps and directors and whoever. If they want it in a script, and they outrank you, put it in.

                    Because it doesn't matter.

                    I may not be a pro, but I've been at this for four years, I've got solid representation, and I've got a script going out which has already attracted a lot of attention. I'm not just starting out, and even though I lack your experience, I have a pretty good handle on it.
                    You absolutely have a handle on some things that I don't: you know a hell of a lot more about getting a rep as a new writer than I do, because I haven't had to do that for a long time. I defer to your expertise on that. But until you've done this for money, you've never done this for money. Sorry to use a tautology to make a point, but I don't know how else to say it.

                    I hope your script sells for a million dollars, you triple book assignments and never have a moment's rest. And then you come back here and share your experiences. Because I promise you, your "opinions" won't sound so rigid.

                    You say I don't speak for all pros - you're right. But I've never met one successful writer who says their way is the only way. I know some who use "we see," and some who don't. Some who hand in scripts over 120, some who would sooner chew off their arm. But they never claim their preference is a standard.

                    I think there are two reasons:

                    1. They know better, because they've worked in the field enough to know that it's not true.

                    2. They're more worried about the actual writing, instead of the minutia of bullshit rules.

                    Honestly, when these issues come up with my friends, probably half of them say "I've never thought about that. Do people really worry about that?"

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                    • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

                      Originally posted by Aspirant View Post
                      Jeff told me I'd posted the first one in the wrong thread. I didn't want to disregard his wisdom.
                      For someone who faints when he feels he's not respected, your snark is a little amusing.

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                      • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

                        Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                        If hyperbole becomes a genre, you're going to be an A-list writer.

                        Again with the "it's just my opinion..." It's my opinion that drinking bleach cures the common cold. Respect my opinion!

                        And let's be honest, a lot of times, your opinion sounds a lot like more than that. You're the one who told someone that if they ever want to use their script for anything but entering into contests, they should cut it under 120, because that's the professional standard. I said that under 120 is a good goal, but that some scripts need more, and found a dozen or more black list scripts over 120 to back up my point. That's it. I don't think trying to keep it under 120 is "nonsense," but I don't think it's right to run around telling strangers that it's some hard and fast rule. It's not.
                        That someone was me... I saw Aspirant's point - my first script was a 120-pager and I landed an agent with it. While I'm currently un-agented, I firmly believe the "world-building" I needed to do in my most recent script required more pages than the general norm.

                        Aspirant assumed I'm a noob - I'm not.
                        "Do just once what others say you can't do, and you will never pay attention to their limitations again." -[/SIZE] James R. Cook

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                        • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

                          Jeff: Believe it or not, I dislike arguing (part of the reason I quit being a lawyer), so I tried to find something in your post that I could agree with. This is it:

                          Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                          Until you've done this for money, you've never done this for money. Sorry to use a tautology to make a point, but I don't know how else to say it.
                          You're right about this. And not just because it's a tautology; I actually get what you mean. I think it's important to "know what you don't know," and I can believe that getting paid to write changes one's perspective on a lot of these issues. I'm not sure how close I am to that -- sometimes it seems like it could be tomorrow, sometimes like it could be never -- but I hope I get a chance to see what it's like from the other side.

                          In the meantime, although I have ventured opinions on certain subjects that I think I know something about, I've tried not to come across as if I think I'm the authority on anything. But if that's the impression I've given, I apologize.

                          And, for the record, I don't think anyone should drink bleach.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

                            I have a long list of people I wish would.

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                            • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

                              It seems to me that much of the anxiety surrounding "rules" and "correctness" is an unfortunate symptom of the highly competitive nature of breaking into the business. Writers are terrified that when competing against a script of seemingly equal merit, the more "correct" one will be preferred.

                              Fortunately, from what the pros here say, this is definitely not the case. A great story is a great story regardless of minor disparities in formatting or length.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

                                Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                                ...It's nice to have rules. The truth is terrifying: you've got to tell a great story well...
                                For me, this explains why writing a script is so daunting. Makes me
                                wonder if it's not all in vain sometimes. It's what I take from this and
                                the other Basics thread...

                                FWIW,
                                I tried to put in two spaces here, came out as one. Oh well, once again.
                                " Don't really like writing. But I do like having written." Vince Gilligan, Breaking Bad.

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