Contest Ranking

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  • Re: Contest Ranking

    OK; I've said my peace. Good luck.

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    • Re: Contest Ranking

      Originally posted by Aspirant View Post
      OK; I've said my peace. Good luck.

      Aspirant, I do appreciate all the time you've taken to steer me right - I know your advice is for the most part spot on.
      "Do just once what others say you can't do, and you will never pay attention to their limitations again." -[/SIZE] James R. Cook

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      • Re: Contest Ranking

        Greg from the Nicholl Fellowship just posted this on facebook. I believe it's from the instructions to readers/judges:


        "You should not hold a script's commercial potential or lack of commercial potential for or against it. If you believe that a particular script could be made tomorrow and it's good, then you should give it a high score. If you believe that a particular script could never be made because of its subject matter or approach but you love it, then you should give it a high score."

        Amen brother!
        "Do just once what others say you can't do, and you will never pay attention to their limitations again." -[/SIZE] James R. Cook

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        • Re: Contest Ranking

          Originally posted by Aspirant View Post
          I'm surprised to hear you argue on this one, Jeff. But I'm talking about new writers here, who are the people qualified to enter Nicholl, not established pros like yourself. Development is a different situation. New writers are hurting themselves if they're writing specs longer than 120 pages. I think that's pretty clear, at least as a general rule. Nicholl should have a limit, and it sounds like if it were up to Greg, they would.
          Yes, development is different. Which is why I mentioned Troy, which was a 158 page spec that sold for 2.5 million dollars and was passed around like the fucking bible in town and put Benioff on the A-list forever. If he had in his head, like you do in yours, that scripts over 120 pages don't "meet professional standards," he would have been screwed.

          Honestly, when someone throws around a phrase like "doesn't meet professional standards," an angel weeps. What does that mean? Do you have a list of professional standards I could take a look at?

          And the whole established writers can get away with things new writers can't is a tired and discredited meme. It's simply not true. The quickest way to become a professional writer is to write like one. The surest way not to is to cling to imaginary professional standards.

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          • Re: Contest Ranking

            Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
            Yes, development is different. Which is why I mentioned Troy, which was a 158 page spec that sold for 2.5 million dollars and was passed around like the fucking bible in town and put Benioff on the A-list forever.
            To be fair, though, didn't Benioff sell Troy as a pitch? And then work with Wolfgang Peterson to get the story right?

            I get your point. No reason to limit yourself to an invisible boundary. But Benioff had some heavy hitters backing him while he wrote that 158 page behemoth.

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            • Re: Contest Ranking

              Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
              Yes, development is different. Which is why I mentioned Troy, which was a 158 page spec that sold for 2.5 million dollars and was passed around like the fucking bible in town and put Benioff on the A-list forever. If he had in his head, like you do in yours, that scripts over 120 pages don't "meet professional standards," he would have been screwed.

              Honestly, when someone throws around a phrase like "doesn't meet professional standards," an angel weeps. What does that mean? Do you have a list of professional standards I could take a look at?

              And the whole established writers can get away with things new writers can't is a tired and discredited meme. It's simply not true. The quickest way to become a professional writer is to write like one. The surest way not to is to cling to imaginary professional standards.
              You have more experience than I, and there are exceptions to every rule, of course. But I stand by what I wrote. I don't believe a new writer trying to break in is well advised to submit scripts that are over 120 pages. I think there is a general sense out there that a script of longer than 120 pages by an unknown writer is a mark of an amateur. And whether it's a "tired" sentiment or not, I think it's undeniably true that established writers have more leeway to bend or ignore convention than new writers do. I've read and heard this from very reputable sources time and time again. My own managers, who are highly credible, have told me the same things. Even if you don't think a reasonable page limit is one of them, certainly professional standards do exist -- for example, basic formatting and the like. To me, writing professionally includes learning how to write concisely and within the length that most readers want to see. There may be other views, but that's mine.

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              • Re: Contest Ranking

                ATB: I thought it was a spec. You're right. The other big sale he had back then was the spec.

                Aspirant: I'm not saying not to shoot to keep your script between 90 and 120. I'm saying some stories are better told outside of that range. (There's also been spec sales for sub-90 scripts - would those authors have been better padding them?)

                To excoriate Nicholl for letting in a 126 page script is silly, IMO.

                It's great that you have a drive to share what you've learned. But why present second hand information as facts?

                I think it's undeniably true that established writers have more leeway to bend or ignore convention than new writers do.
                We've had this exact conversation on donedealpro within the last six months, and every WGA writer on the board weighed in to say that statement is absolutely not true. I don't know your "very reputable sources," but you should invite them to stop by. Seriously!

                certainly professional standards do exist -- for example, basic formatting and the like
                You have hit on the one professional standard that I agree with you on. Basic formatting. I honestly can't think of one more. Can you?

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                • Re: Contest Ranking

                  Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                  ATB: I thought it was a spec. You're right. The other big sale he had back then was the spec.
                  Did he break in with a spec? I thought his first gig was adapting his own novel, The 25th Hour.

                  And I think he was hired by Spike Lee to do that but I could be wrong.

                  Either way, even if Troy was Benioff's first script, he would've been acknowledged and praised the same way for his 158 page "rule breaker."

                  So you're right. Some stories need more time. A sprawling Trojan War epic is one of them.

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                  • Re: Contest Ranking

                    Yep - that was a few years before. "Stay" was the big spec sale.

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                    • Re: Contest Ranking

                      Oh, yeah. Forgot about that one. Sparked a firestorm of a bidding war.

                      My copy of that script is 105 pages. So that just shows you: If your story needs to be 105 pages, great. If it has to be 158 pages, so be it. But you can't force it into a length it's not meant for.

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                      • Re: Contest Ranking

                        I think Jeff summarized it perfectly. Formatting rules are the only screenwriting rules that make sense. Particularly annoying are the "X has to happen by page whatever and Y has to happen by page whatever".... There is no one size fits all for every script, so page limits are equally erroneous in many cases. Granted, there are issues that come into play like production cost, extraneous material in a script, etc. And the majority of stories for the screen are probably best told in 120 pages or less....but certainly not all. As far as the Nicholl is concerned, isn't the point to discover new writers with talent? So knowing when to trim a few extra pages probably isn't the forte of a lot of emerging writers -- I really don't think it's a reason to discount quality writing. Writing leaner tends to come with experience.

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                        • Re: Contest Ranking

                          Originally posted by ATB View Post
                          But you can't force it into a length it's not meant for.

                          I ATB!
                          "Do just once what others say you can't do, and you will never pay attention to their limitations again." -[/SIZE] James R. Cook

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                          • Re: Contest Ranking

                            Originally posted by jeannie517 View Post
                            As far as the Nicholl is concerned, isn't the point to discover new writers with talent? So knowing when to trim a few extra pages probably isn't the forte of a lot of emerging writers -- I really don't think it's a reason to discount quality writing.
                            I jeannie too!
                            "Do just once what others say you can't do, and you will never pay attention to their limitations again." -[/SIZE] James R. Cook

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                            • Re: Contest Ranking

                              Awhile back, I worked on a half hour TV show, shot single camera style. Most scripts for those are 32, 33 pages, max. The scripts for the show were routinely 50, 60 pages or more - and they timed out perfectly. The style of the show was fast paced with short sentences.

                              Some styles of writing or types of stories may make your script longer (or shorter) than "professional standards." It's fine. No one who matters cares. Is it a good read and interesting? That's all they care about.

                              This point has been made a hundred times, so I'll make it briefly: all this talk about readers giving bad coverage because of length is nonsense. A reader is handed a script and paid to write coverage on the content. Not to comment on formatting. They can't set it down because it uses "WE SEE" or is 128 pages.

                              Most contests have maximum page lengths. Most contests are money making operations for the people running it. Of course they want shorter scripts.

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                              • Re: Contest Ranking

                                To each his own.

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