Franklin Leonard

[kintnerboy]

Re: Franklin Leonard

because then indy pros would only search for scripts 8 and above. it's unfair to take a rating that is hugely subjective and allow them to search by rating.

Ha! Is that what someone actually said? That's even worse than saying nothing at all.

I mean, you CAN do a search for 'Reader Endorsed' scripts. That means the script has received at least 2 scores of 8 or higher. So any Indy Pros searching for the 'Best' scripts could do that.

Right now there are 90 scripts hosted (out of 3400) that fit that criteria.

If you do a search for 'Most Popular + Reader Endorsed' my script is #26.

You know who searches that way? NO ONE (I've never had a download when I wasn't on a Toplist).

[catcon]

Re: Franklin Leonard

..i haven't sent it to anyone in a couple of years. i thought i couldn't send it out because it had some exposure already-- don't know why i thought that. handful of people, maybe a dozen or so...

I'm always blaming my poverty for not taking advantage of these paid script posting sites, but this is my biggest reason for not partaking. Aside from the usual going-wide blitzkriegs from reps, it is indeed possible that posting scripts (or even coverage eg. SpecScout?) on such sites can essentially blacklist you among an unpleasant proportion of producers (and reps, if you care).

But listen up: I regularly do pitch blasts for scripts that have been polished significantly (shorter script, new log, fresh query). Aside from the occasional new read, I have also had repeat reads from people who'd seen earlier drafts 3-5 years ago. Maybe it puts me on some other sort of blacklist, as a result, but this keeps happening. There are lots and lots of prospective buyers out there, and since financial capability, interests, public mood changes so much and so often, you should never give up on your work (even if Bono disagrees ).

Anyway, I won't go on about it.

Have you tried VPF? They have a number of prodcos who list "big" or "high budget" or "blockbuster" interests (which you will have to match against their company background, which of course you will research first). Wait till there's a big sale on (which happens every 2nd day, it seems, on VPF) and get yourself a bundle, say 13 for $90, and then use them very judiciously, for companies that you know (like Alcon*) might be able to afford things such as your epic.

* Alcon; yes, I have their email addresses, but I've only ever gotten "we don't take unsolicited" on my pitches there, over the years. Gave up at least 4 years ago. As a result, I did hit them up on VPF. The guy there annoys me with his "It just didn't grab us" responses, but given their stature I'd still try them on VPF (since I'm unrepped) - but only when I have the cash. I assume you have a more normal financial situation than I do, that's all.

And g'luck! Go and convince them that your spec is the source IP that's gonna break big, and generate endless sequels and TV series!

VPF pros and needs

[GucciGhostXXX]

Re: Franklin Leonard

the problem is this... it's not on the top lists because it aged out and i didn't continue to pay for more reviews. i would have to pay for two upfront to get on the top month and quarter, then pay for another two to get on the top annual list.

and apologies, i think you misunderstood. it is on the most popular list, which i don't think anyone really knows how to access.

it isn't visible unless you go to "search" and select "most popular," then you can see it. i don't know how many people know you can search that way. if you don't search that way, you don't know it's one of the most popular.<--- most popular is key. i use it in my query and load it on my website. i'm not sure it really means anything, but marketing is marketing, you know?

so, it's most popular, i still have no idea who's read it. i mean, there's a lot of "indy pros" who are not able to "option" material at this budget. it's probably in the $50 million range and according to Imagine Impact, that's considered Ultra High Budget.

there is nowhere that you can search by highest ratings, and TBL admits why... because then indy pros would only search for scripts 8 and above. it's unfair to take a rating that is hugely subjective and allow them to search by rating. an 8 to one person is another person's 6, know what i mean?

well, i haven't been looking. i started sending the first round of queries out last week. i haven't sent it to anyone in a couple of years. i thought i couldn't send it out because it had some exposure already-- don't know why i thought that. handful of people, maybe a dozen or so.

like i said before, i had a manager for about a year. some top execs read it, screen gems, sony TV, but it was a time when "serial" killer sh!t was really saturated, especially on TV.

the only way to get on the top lists again is to pay for two more reviews. not ready to do that until i rep up. then they can be one of the "votes" to get me on the list again. some writers at the very top (#1) has like 19 paid reviews-- every public review is an 8, 9, or 10. it has 122 overall ratings. the writer doesn't show the graph that gives the rating distribution, and that is usually an indication there are lower scores as well, imo. not to take anything away, it must be an amazing script. i'm sure it is.

and i don't know the quality of the reviews anymore. i was lucky before on both my specs. i have a new one that will be ready to submit for reviews to see if it needs another rewrite or not. if it gets high enough scores, i'll post it on the site.

the writer doesn't show the graph that gives the rating distribution, and that is usually an indication there are lower scores as well, imo. not to take anything away, it must be an amazing script. i'm sure it is.

i keep Tracker up there and Wasteland (the Feature is somewhere around #55). not many downloads, because as soon as they see, budget: BLOCKBUSTER, i think, smartly, indy pros don't bother wasting their time. haha.

and Lauri D, feels the pain, too. she is an amazing writer, consistently receives high 8s and 9s on all her scripts. so yeah, it can be quite disappointing.

The only real way Tracker is viewable is on the "featured script" listing. they select scripts and team you up with a graphic artist to design a poster. it's fun. exciting. here's a dropbox to TRACKER. here's a dropbox link---> https://www.dropbox.com/s/nlklzwockb...%20V2.jpg?dl=0 my daughter had it blown up full size for my office. haha.

Hmmmm.... I don't totally get how BL works, but if (WHEN!) you get repped up again, why bother with BL? Or did I read you wrong?

[GucciGhostXXX]

Re: Franklin Leonard

If your service is geared toward helping writers, one has to ask -- are writers being helped or are you just taking the money? Allowing someone to pay for 31 reads is not helping that writer. It is lining your pockets. Only a fool would say otherwise.

When you have something like Imagine Impact which is FREE to enter, pays the writers 40k, sets them up with a mentor for rewrites, helps them form a pitch and sets them up to pitch to a huge group of industry people, and helps them get reps, other services pale in comparison.

Even the Nicholl, which gets knocked sometimes as their winners are often not super commercially bent, still, if a writer is one of five winners they pay the writer a 30k fellowship.

If you "win" the BL by paying for a couple reads and wind up on a top list, congrats! It is an accomplishment. But for your hard work you get to continue to pay the BL 30 bucks a month to be hosted, while never knowing who has actually read your script.

One of these things is not like the other.

Agreed!

And the non-transparency... what other "business" functions this way? Where they refuse to tell you the qualifications of the person evaluating your work nor the qualifications for the person looking to make your work.

The site heavily relies on "the dreams of the desperate." It's barely above a flat out scam.

[finalact4]

Re: Franklin Leonard

Wait... WHAT? How the frick do you not have an agent/manager?

the problem is this... it's not on the top lists because it aged out and i didn't continue to pay for more reviews. i would have to pay for two upfront to get on the top month and quarter, then pay for another two to get on the top annual list.

and apologies, i think you misunderstood. it is on the most popular list, which i don't think anyone really knows how to access.

it isn't visible unless you go to "search" and select "most popular," then you can see it. i don't know how many people know you can search that way. if you don't search that way, you don't know it's one of the most popular.<--- most popular is key. i use it in my query and load it on my website. i'm not sure it really means anything, but marketing is marketing, you know?

so, it's most popular, i still have no idea who's read it. i mean, there's a lot of "indy pros" who are not able to "option" material at this budget. it's probably in the $50 million range and according to Imagine Impact, that's considered Ultra High Budget.

the only way to get on the top lists again is to pay for two more reviews. not ready to do that until i rep up. then they can be one of the "votes" to get me on the list again. some writers at the very top (#1) has like 19 paid reviews-- every public review is an 8, 9, or 10. it has 122 overall ratings. the writer doesn't show the graph that gives the rating distribution, and that is usually an indication there are lower scores as well, imo. not to take anything away, it must be an amazing script. i'm sure it is.

and i don't know the quality of the reviews anymore. i was lucky before on both my specs. i have a new one that will be ready to submit for reviews to see if it needs another rewrite or not. if it gets high enough scores, i'll post it on the site.

there is nowhere that you can search by highest ratings, and TBL admits why... because then indy pros would only search for scripts 8 and above. it's unfair to take a rating that is hugely subjective and allow them to search by rating. an 8 to one person is another person's 6, know what i mean?

well, i haven't been looking. i started sending the first round of queries out last week. i haven't sent it to anyone in a couple of years. i thought i couldn't send it out because it had some exposure already-- don't know why i thought that. handful of people, maybe a dozen or so.

like i said before, i had a manager for about a year. some top execs read it, screen gems, sony TV, but it was a time when "serial" killer sh!t was really saturated, especially on TV.

the writer doesn't show the graph that gives the rating distribution, and that is usually an indication there are lower scores as well, imo. not to take anything away, it must be an amazing script. i'm sure it is.

i keep Tracker up there and Wasteland (the Feature is somewhere around #55). not many downloads, because as soon as they see, budget: BLOCKBUSTER, i think, smartly, indy pros don't bother wasting their time. haha.

and Lauri D, feels the pain, too. she is an amazing writer, consistently receives high 8s and 9s (i think she's received straight 9s) on her scripts. so yeah, it can be quite disappointing.

The only real way Tracker is viewable is on the "featured script" listing. they select scripts and team you up with a graphic artist to design a poster. it's fun. exciting. here's a dropbox to TRACKER. here's a dropbox link---> https://www.dropbox.com/s/nlklzwockb...%20V2.jpg?dl=0 my daughter had it blown up full size for my office. haha.

the other problem is that it is very dark and violent. but hey, you're watch a killer's memories, violent is built into the premise.

[figment]

Re: Franklin Leonard

If your service is geared toward helping writers, one has to ask -- are writers being helped or are you just taking the money? Allowing someone to pay for 31 reads is not helping that writer. It is lining your pockets. Only a fool would say otherwise.

When you have something like Imagine Impact which is FREE to enter, pays the writers 40k, sets them up with a mentor for rewrites, helps them form a pitch and sets them up to pitch to a huge group of industry people, and helps them get reps, other services pale in comparison.

Even the Nicholl, which gets knocked sometimes as their winners are often not super commercially bent, still, if a writer is one of five winners they pay the writer a 30k fellowship.

If you "win" the BL by paying for a couple reads and wind up on a top list, congrats! It is an accomplishment. But for your hard work you get to continue to pay the BL 30 bucks a month to be hosted, while never knowing who has actually read your script.

One of these things is not like the other.

[Strangerthanfiction]

Re: Franklin Leonard

I took the free evaluations because they came with free hosting. It's a package deal. I guess you could just keep your 8's and hope for some additional love from the industry folks, but you'll have to pay the $25 a month to host (and it still is 25 btw -- not sure where the $30 a mo. rumor got started).

If you DON'T take the free evals, you'll always wonder what they would have been.

But you're going to get some 5's, either from readers or the industry. So what. Only makes them look bad, not you.

The $30 a month charge is not a rumor. It's clearly stated on the Blacklist website.

"Non-guild members must host at least one screenplay or pilot ($30/script/month) in order for their membership to be active. We also encourage, but do not require, the purchase of at least one paid evaluation from our readers ($75/read for features and 1-hr pilots, $50/read for half-hour or less pilots). Only hosted scripts can receive evaluations."

[GucciGhostXXX]

Re: Franklin Leonard

I don't think I've ever said anything really negative about the Blacklist -- I'm all for free market economies and due diligence and all that good stuff, but

their TECH DEPT. sucks. They either need to fire everybody or maybe go buy a used algorithm from Netflix or something.

When I am (pretending I'm a producer) looking at a horror script with a 7.5 rating, and I click on one of the 'Similar Script' titles in the upper left hand corner, and I get a comedy with a 3 average, it causes me to lose faith in the credibility of your brand.

Likewise, the search function is not as useful as it should be (perhaps on purpose -- Like everything else on the site, it's transparently ambiguous).

When you search through the 3400 currently hosted scripts on the website, you can narrow the field by 'Most Rated' and 'Most Popular'.

My script is currently in the top 30 Most Rated, which SOUNDS great...

except that it's 10 spots lower than a script where the author has purchased 31 paid reviews, only to wind up with a combined average of 1.8 (not making that up... I would say it must be a prank/joke, but he's already spent over $2400).

What would be much more useful to everyone, would be the ability to narrow the search field by HIGHEST RATED scripts, which is obviously the most useful metric.

But to do that would take away from the allure of the monthly and quarterly top lists, which are not free to get on.

That fact that the BL refuses to let people search the highest rated scripts on the website is what leads to the frequent pay-to-play accusations.

I still like the site, but boy is it hard to defend sometimes.

That's nutz, 31 paid reads? Wtf?

It's absolutely pay-to-play... If I was Franklin I'd never admit that (do the math on what he'$ making) but that's exactly what it is. Good for him (I guess) for figuring out a new way to fleece wannabe writers.

...Yet, it's pretty gross IMO.

[GucciGhostXXX]

Re: Franklin Leonard

Lots of scripts do well on the Black List without any tangible results for the writers.

A high rating or ranking isn't a guarantee of anything.

Right. Just say'n... thats a pretty miserable stat for the BL: Top 9 script on the entire site and no reps calling???

[catcon]

Re: Franklin Leonard

...themselves could turn into a discrimination lawsuit (even if you're discriminating against trust fund babies with more money than talent).

Caveat Emptor.

Instead of payday loans, I should have used the example of casinos, where the lawless days of the old West are slowly being impacted by lawsuits from gambling addicts, and by government legislation.

Everybody seen Owning Mahowny? Good heavens, Philip Seymore Hoffman and John Hurt at their best. The way the Hoffman character was "encouraged" to keep playing the game became an issue, as much as his sorry journey to disaster was an issue.

The film shows how bad it can get, and the epilogue shows how it can become a bigger issue than just between buyer and seller, and how inevitably the company can be held at least partially to account.

All I'm talking about here, with BL, is maybe having a talk with the guy. Or under their 'News' heading announce a 'cap' on the number of submissions of the same script per month. Or maybe saying if you pass that threshold you have to have (pay for) a one-on-one consultation, instead of blowing your money on endless coverage reports. See? Always an opportunity for looking like a good guy, instead of just a money pit.

Maybe they did have that chat, or have a cap or something else in mind. Who knows. Me? I'd be embarrassed to be taking the guy's money for anything after 9 submissions over a period of a few months. And that's presuming the guy's continually polishing the work. If he's just submitting the same draft over and over, to try to get different results, then I have no sympathy for either side, but in any sort of civil intervention it's more likely the company that will lose in reputation, or award + legal fees, let alone loss of time and resources.

So why not just be a good corporate citizen before it goes that far.

And I mean more than merely having a "Code of Conduct" on your website. You have to do it.

Hey, I do "feel" for corps. I'm one, but incorporated as a sole operator so don't have any law-fare inclined employees to face, thankfully. Whether we're individuals or have a public or private Board to face, we're all just trying to eke out a living.

But we should always try to avoid believing in black and white solutions for every issue out there. Inevitably, those who believe in the all-white or all-black will take over the agenda, either one over the other or for the mere fun (it seems) of smashing each other into pieces, as we see in our politics today.

[kintnerboy]

Re: Franklin Leonard

I don't know how much time your example ($2400) represents... months? Years? How long do these things stay active? And am I to infer that this was for a single script, 31 times?). But maybe if somebody's spending that kind of money, couldn't BL say "Just hold on a second..."

It's 1 script with 31 paid reviews. I know this because all 31 are posted. Reading them amounts to a master class in how to let someone down gently -- I am not naming the title or the author, obviously. My intention is not to embarrass. Easy to find though.

I've posted about this in a previous thread (when Franklin was still active) and had my mind completely changed in the process.

I used to believe that a company had a ethical responsibility (like a bartender) to not oversell people who were not benefiting from a service.

But there's too many slippery slopes and there's too many ways that an attempt to protect someone from themselves could turn into a discrimination lawsuit (even if you're discriminating against trust fund babies with more money than talent).

Caveat Emptor.

[catcon]

Re: Franklin Leonard

...10 spots lower than a script where the author has purchased 31 paid reviews, only to wind up with a combined average of 1.8 (not making that up... I would say it must be a prank/joke, but he's already spent over $2400)...

Corporations should have ethics too. Look at the opiod problem and how the manufacturers didn't seem to care about the consequences of their actions.

The consequences re not as serious in the screenwriting consulting/pay-for-service world, but maybe we could compare it to the payday-loan world, but merely care about the $$$.

It gets so bad that sometimes government can be called in to regulate things. If you're a liberal or Democrat, do you want conservatives or Republicans deciding the limits? Or the other way around?

So, before that happens, a little self-regulation or code of conduct is a wise thing.

Nicholl, for example, allows only 3 scripts max. to be submitted each year. Sure, part of this is that they don't want to overburden their readers, but money-per-submission is good money, and I'm sure they'd be happy to take it. But I'm sure it's also because they figure they don't want some poor amateur sucker (like me? 50 scripts?) sending everything, and going bankrupt in the process, in the hopes of something sticking. (There's the old story from Greg Beal that somebody once submitted 100 scripts. A hundred!)

So how does this relate to this BL thingee?

I don't know how much time your example ($2400) represents... months? Years? How long do these things stay active? And am I to infer that this was for a single script, 31 times?). But maybe if somebody's spending that kind of money, couldn't BL say "Just hold on a second..."

It's a bit like the payday loan folks who have voluntarily (or otherwise) begun to have limits on what they can take in, even if the borrower has a perfect payment record.

After all, the 'corporations' in our very own screenwriting world claim to know how it all works, and that if you've eg. requested coverage 10 times for the same script, in a six-month period, somebody should probably have a talk with the writer or, even, impose a cap. (Never mind that such situations can skew the results of those much vaunted algorithms and polls, as you mention)

It's a moral choice that corporations can make, even if our free-enterprise, capitalistic, entrepreneurial freedoms permit something else.

[kintnerboy]

Re: Franklin Leonard

I don't think I've ever said anything really negative about the Blacklist -- I'm all for free market economies and due diligence and all that good stuff, but

their TECH DEPT. sucks. They either need to fire everybody or maybe go buy a used algorithm from Netflix or something.

When I am (pretending I'm a producer) looking at a horror script with a 7.5 rating, and I click on one of the 'Similar Script' titles in the upper left hand corner, and I get a comedy with a 3 average, it causes me to lose faith in the credibility of your brand.

Likewise, the search function is not as useful as it should be (perhaps on purpose -- Like everything else on the site, it's transparently ambiguous).

When you search through the 3400 currently hosted scripts on the website, you can narrow the field by 'Most Rated' and 'Most Popular'.

My script is currently in the top 30 Most Rated, which SOUNDS great...

except that it's 10 spots lower than a script where the author has purchased 31 paid reviews, only to wind up with a combined average of 1.8 (not making that up... I would say it must be a prank/joke, but he's already spent over $2400).

What would be much more useful to everyone, would be the ability to narrow the search field by HIGHEST RATED scripts, which is obviously the most useful metric.

But to do that would take away from the allure of the monthly and quarterly top lists, which are not free to get on.

That fact that the BL refuses to let people search the highest rated scripts on the website is what leads to the frequent pay-to-play accusations.

I still like the site, but boy is it hard to defend sometimes.

[kintnerboy]

Re: Franklin Leonard

Just curious if placing well in the big contests (not named Nicholl) would translate well into getting an 8 on the Blacklist.

When I knew I had something really good on my hands, I sent it everywhere specifically to see if there was any consistency between the BL and the contests and the professional readers.

The good news: Yes, there is. A great script SHOULD do well everywhere you send it (but if it doesn't -- it doesn't mean anything. Remember, it's still all just a crap shoot).

The bad news (for me) was, Crime Thrillers are deader than bromance comedies, so I'm back at square one.

[kintnerboy]

Re: Franklin Leonard

So if you get a couple of 8's, do you just stand pat? Why risk anything lower than that?

I took the free evaluations because they came with free hosting. It's a package deal. I guess you could just keep your 8's and hope for some additional love from the industry folks, but you'll have to pay the $25 a month to host (and it still is 25 btw -- not sure where the $30 a mo. rumor got started).

If you DON'T take the free evals, you'll always wonder what they would have been.

But you're going to get some 5's, either from readers or the industry. So what. Only makes them look bad, not you.