Franklin Leonard

[Friday]

Re: Franklin Leonard

I've received multiple overall 8s on the Black List, dozens of downloads, and much like several others on here...very little contact from pros on the site.

I learned long ago to treat it like a lottery. If you have a little money to burn, buy an evaluation or two to see if you are one of the 5% lucky enough to score an 8 or above. And do that while knowing that the likelihood of someone getting in contact with you is slim to none. If you get below an 8, take your script down right away because the hosting fees are a giant waste of money.

I haven't actually spent any money on the site so far this year -- I've gone all in on contests, which I think the industry takes far more seriously. There are promising early results, but if nothing pans out, I'll probably try the BL again. I see it as a last resort whose main benefit is that it operates year-round.

It almost makes me feel kind of sad for writers that we continue to put so much stock in a service that gets more expensive over time yet continues to yield so little clear return on investment. But we're desperate, so that's just the way it is (and always be).

Gotta give credit to Franklin for forming alliances with a wide variety of stakeholders in the industry in a way that makes them hesitant to discuss (or even consider) any of the downsides of the site. Of course, in the end it's the writers pulling cash out of their pockets so they don't really care. The man's more than a smart businessman -- he's a smooth operator. He'd be great on "Survivor," lol.

Did you see a difference in grading between the Blacklist and the major contests? The reason I like contests is because I think they are pretty generous with their grading. I haven't tried the Blacklist yet.


Similar to my curiosity with Bono, what do you think is the level of placement you need to get the attention of one of this big managers?

[Friday]

Re: Franklin Leonard

Well put up and coming.

And for the record, you don't need 1 contest or site (even this one, but this is free for forums at least) to succeed. But I'm sure all writers like me have got the book, did contests, yada yada. It's part of the process.

I remember reading about some service in Creative Screenwriting and I think he was first guy to send my work to a real manager and that is what got me thinking about pushing hard to get my work out there -- which lead me to this site -- which lead me to getting reps. So some of it is worth the investment. You learn as you go.

But of course, I try to tell the younger writers, there is no need to do any of that. It's all about the writing. The real contest is trying to sell the script. To become a working writer in Hollywood.

You can get perfect scores on this website and still be unrepped and unsold, right?

From what you've seen, how high do you have to place in a major contest to get the attention of a big time manager?

[Bono]

Re: Franklin Leonard

Well put up and coming.

And for the record, you don't need 1 contest or site (even this one, but this is free for forums at least) to succeed. But I'm sure all writers like me have got the book, did contests, yada yada. It's part of the process.

I remember reading about some service in Creative Screenwriting and I think he was first guy to send my work to a real manager and that is what got me thinking about pushing hard to get my work out there -- which lead me to this site -- which lead me to getting reps. So some of it is worth the investment. You learn as you go.

But of course, I try to tell the younger writers, there is no need to do any of that. It's all about the writing. The real contest is trying to sell the script. To become a working writer in Hollywood.

You can get perfect scores on this website and still be unrepped and unsold, right?

[UpandComing]

Re: Franklin Leonard

I've received multiple overall 8s on the Black List, dozens of downloads, and much like several others on here...very little contact from pros on the site.

I learned long ago to treat it like a lottery. If you have a little money to burn, buy an evaluation or two to see if you are one of the 5% lucky enough to score an 8 or above. And do that while knowing that the likelihood of someone getting in contact with you is slim to none. If you get below an 8, take your script down right away because the hosting fees are a giant waste of money.

I haven't actually spent any money on the site so far this year -- I've gone all in on contests, which I think the industry takes far more seriously. There are promising early results, but if nothing pans out, I'll probably try the BL again. I see it as a last resort whose main benefit is that it operates year-round.

It almost makes me feel kind of sad for writers that we continue to put so much stock in a service that gets more expensive over time yet continues to yield so little clear return on investment. But we're desperate, so that's just the way it is (and always be).

Gotta give credit to Franklin for forming alliances with a wide variety of stakeholders in the industry in a way that makes them hesitant to discuss (or even consider) any of the downsides of the site. Of course, in the end it's the writers pulling cash out of their pockets so they don't really care. The man's more than a smart businessman -- he's a smooth operator. He'd be great on "Survivor," lol.

[catcon]

Re: Franklin Leonard

...while Mr Leonard apparently spends most of his free time arranging live reads and jetsetting around to various film festivals.

Well, perhaps "changing the way movies are made" wasn't so "accidental" after all, per the video clip, and is an ongoing process.

Look, I'm all for entrepreneurism in a free-enterprise, capitalist environment. Good on Franklin for coming up with an idea at the right time, with the cool brand name (to him; I think it carries an historical burden that I've never accepted), all at pricing that the FTC isn't going to launch an investigation about.

But it's mostly a mirage. One that no outside investors would likely accept, and thus no IPO is coming any time soon. It's a modern IT solution for an archaic system of "power", where the model itself either doesn't know it isn't wearing any clothes, or hopes that no one else notices. It's a misty fugue based on branding (including, increasingly, his personal branding) and prestige (the existence of those unnamed, powerful pro members), mixed in with a dollop of scoreboard ratings to insinuate merit, based on that most mysterious of concepts - an "algorithm".

And that's on the positive side.

On the potential negative side, abusing or becoming complacent about or too dependent on the BL or any other such site might reveal them as the examples of mere pay-for-access that some claim they are.

What was that "hot" script a few years ago, I think by Shia LaBeouf, where his management team paid for multiple multiple BL evaluations, presumably to bump up the average and "suck 'em in"? It's a marketer's dream, if ya' got a big name to begin with, and ya' got something that's reasonably comprehensible to read, if ya' can cover the requisite fees, then just pay up and we'll reward ya'.

After all, the algorithm proves it.

We just don't need these sites. To Franklin's credit, he's said as much more than once, about his BL. Though that also deflects the criticism he'd expect to receive for being at the top of the leader board in these types of services.

The end result? For writers who aren't as much into marketing, and have the discretionary income, paying somebody else to do it for them continues to be an option.

And occasionally useful and/or rewarding.

But I still say that we can do a lot of it ourselves, and I for one have a lot more patience than I have $$$.

[jroger]

Re: Franklin Leonard

The cost of hosting has gone up to $30 per month per script. Personally, as someone who has used this service numerous times over the years, I think that is too much. If you have several scripts to host, it becomes a very expensive game. Surely a membership fee for writers at $30 per month, regardless of the number of scripts they host would be fairer. So instead of paying $120 to host four scripts, the cost would remain at $30. Or at least offer a substantial discount on any subsequent scripts the writer may host. At the end of the day, unless you hit the 8s and above, you are incredibly lucky to get a view or download anyway. Talking of views, I hate the fact that they have now consolidated the views, so you have no idea if it's an industry member or another writer viewing your script info.
I apologize if this post sounds like a bitching session, that is not my intention... Just voicing an opinion as a long time customer struggling to pay the hosting fees.

It's ridiculous. $25 per month was a already a lot. $30 is pushing it too far. The real cost to them is probably $0.02/month for each script hosted on there.

I understood when they raised the rates of their evaluations, esp since they paid their readers more (although they still deserve a bigger cut IMO).

Raising the hosting rate, though, exposes their true colors.

Even so, at the end of the day, it wouldn't hurt as much if one got the sense that the money was being used to actually improve the service. Instead, the website has gotten progressively more convoluted, slower, and harder to navigate/use while Mr Leonard apparently spends most of his free time arranging live reads and jetsetting around to various film festivals.

[finalact4]

Re: Franklin Leonard

Thank you for your response, Finalact. Will email them.

okay, i'm double checking, too, which i should have done first. i'm now not sure if you can see the reviews if you "list." i'm going to see if the option is still there. will advise back on this post. i know i have an email where they explained it to me, so maybe that's why i've never taken mine down, i have high scores, Tracker is a featured script and i don't want either to disappear.

PE: okay, found my email. it's kind of older... 2017. when you suspend your script your script it is not listed. but it you remove the script completely you are allowed to "index" it, provides the title, writer, synopsis and contact information. sorry for the confusion.

if you want, PM me your email and i'll send you the email trail.

again, sorry for the fire drill.

PEE: i looks like it will remain in the database. the example i have i can still pull up the link, but when i search for it by the authors or the title the search results are 0. not sure if that works on the industry member side or not.

[catcon]

Re: Franklin Leonard

umm, no that's not all they need. they need legitimacy. ...

As legitimate as the BL readers who punch out 3-5 evaluations a day, I guess.

As for my point about a website URL in the BL writer's profile page, my experience was 5-6 years ago. It's good that they've updated it.

But you know the old trope, that writers have one chance to prove something to their readers and buyers? How about a messy corporate or software roll-out: It can result equally in the intended buyers losing faith in a way that's very hard to recover.

[Strangerthanfiction]

Re: Franklin Leonard

Thank you for your response, Finalact. Will email them.

[finalact4]

Re: Franklin Leonard

How do you get your scripts to show in listed status?
Before, when the hosting ended they showed as listed automatically. Since my hosting ended recently, all of my scripts are showing as offline. I can't see an option to change this setting anywhere.

when you stopped the autorenew you should have been giving an option to completely delete it or keep it as "listed."

i saw another writer's script listed three days ago, so i'm sure it's still available.

i'd send them an email and ask if you can change it to listed.

[finalact4]

Re: Franklin Leonard

Hope you've checked out the totally free ScriptRevolution, then. If you have some positive results from BL, there'd be no reason you couldn't post them there as a salesy thing, on your script definitions.

All SR needs is enough great scripts (there're nearly 5000 now), and the search tools ought to attract more professional visitors/buyers. After all, if BL were totally good enough, there wouldn't need to be any other, similar sites, but there are plenty. In the never-ending quest for material, producers et al are always looking. They need to check out ScriptRevolution - hey, it's free for them, too, though that's always been a bit of a bug to me since ours is one of the few industries where the seller pays for the marketing! I guess these sites use the paradigm of the old newspaper ads; well, look how that paradigm is doing these days, given Craig's, Kijiji, etc.

umm, no that's not all they need. they need legitimacy. and is there a way to tell which of the over 4,000 scripts are, in fact, any good? you can't, that i can tell. and they're not. they don't have the "Black List" recognition standing behind them either. almost everyone in the industry knows about the Annual Black List.

you're just listed with every other writer on a site. why not distinguish yourself and have your own website? make yourself stand apart. you can get a site up for free and to host and secure the name isn't that expensive.

and, no disrespect intended, but i don't believe an industry professional gives two shits what writers think about the quality of the writing or producibility of another writer's spec. that's what The Black List does, like it or not, it gives legitimacy to the writer should you receive high scores.

i mean, what's to stop two writers from conspiring to write amazing reviews for each other? and what if you get a newbie writer review your script who has no clue about story? it's a risk i'm not willing to take with my work, i know that.

And speaking of...
Damn, I haven't spent much time on the BL, but this FAQ kind of blew me away when I saw it today:
Holy crap!!!

If I knew that even one of my loglines, from some past submission to a prodco, were up on this BL, I'd be pretty sore about it.

why? the can't post your script. it can't be downloaded. it's free marketing and advertising. i know a friend whose old manager listed on of her scripts on the Black List without her knowing. it's not a bad thing-- people who have read another of your scripts can search your name and see your spec there. there isn't a downside, that i can see.

First of all, everything I've written is being polished continually, and then marketed anew. I want and expect control over the access to my stuff. Secondly, my absence from the BL is not just because it's generally unaffordable for me but because, all factors considered, I choose not to be there.

of course, it's your script, but i don't see the problem at all. all you have to do is ask the black list to remove it.

Oddly enough, I did try to register once (way way back), but backed out when I saw that there wasn't a place for me to enter my website URL. Sheesh. I queried the place but was told "we're looking at it", but to my knowledge there's still no place for it (just the usual Twitter, maybe FB, LinkedIn, etc.)

are you talking about TBL or ScriptRevolution here? TBL has had a writer's profile page available for all writers to create and provide a bio. it allows you to link your personal website.

Well, what's going on there: Are we the most stupid people in the world that we don't see the value in a website, so why would they need a box for it on that site? Or are they just trying to hide it so the pro members don't try to deal with us outside of the BL?

anyone who (industry professional) uses TBL can contact you through your BL email and ask you to take the conversation offline. they provide their email and away you go. TBL isn't trying to stifle connection but rather foster it.

Anyway, if I do have any (old) loglines on the BL, I sure would be sore about it. Yet, without joining I suppose I have no way of telling. After a fairly good flurry of read requests in my early years, I have wondered sometimes if I've been "blacklisted" somehow, somewhere.

it doesn't cost anything to join. if you're concerned. join and search by your name. if you don't want it there request it be removed.

I guess not, though. I still get the occasional out-of-the-blue breakthrough read request from major prodcos that I pitch, along with regular requests from newer/smaller companies. But reads from the bigs sure are harder to come by these days, in spite of tighter/better writing gained from all my practice and experience.

good to hear your hard work is paying off.
best to you, catcon.
FA4

[Strangerthanfiction]

Re: Franklin Leonard

How do you get your scripts to show in listed status?
Before, when the hosting ended they showed as listed automatically. Since my hosting ended recently, all of my scripts are showing as offline. I can't see an option to change this setting anywhere.

[catcon]

Re: Franklin Leonard

...you can also leave your script on the site in "listed status" at no monthly fee. with that, your script page is still visible to the industry as are your reviews. the indutry pro, if interested in your script cannot download it, but they can email you and ask you to send it to them....

If this is so, then this seems pretty good. But I suppose you have to have been a paid user initially? But as I say, this is okay and is rather ScriptRevolution-like except that there you do (or can, as I reveal only my logs and query info) post scripts for free, and have them downloaded (and notified whom).

[Strangerthanfiction]

Re: Franklin Leonard

Hi Finalact, I was referring to the views of my script page. They used to inform you if it was a writer or industry member viewing your page. Now the views are consolidated into "All Views" so we don't know.
On the main page, under registration, it states $30 per month per script.
Since I turned off the auto renew hosting payment option, and my hosting ended, my scripts have disappeared from the site. Before, they used to continue to show in listed status.

[Bono]

Re: Franklin Leonard

I'm sure Franklin is a nice guy and a good person, someone I like. But he started a service to make money that helps some writers correct? And that's fair in this economy.

But what used to drive me nuts about this place was people would attack these "services" and certain people would go way too far -- but then I got annoyed at the people running the services jumping into the writers conversations about how they felt about it. And with every defense comment back, I believed in the person running the service less and less.

It's a tough needle to thread.

Even Craig M who I love and love scriptnotes, he hates almost all these services and contests -- says not worth the money. He's brutal to Final Draft which is funny, but I still use it -- works for me. I don't love it, but I tried highland and my brain can not figure out how to write in that code. I'm too old and stupid. My point was Craig on his podcast has Franklin on sometimes and he's said good things about black list because they are friends -- but I think the real Craig secretly doesn't like it too. It goes against all he's said.

And back in the day when everyone was here, you post something like this and you get attacked by all sides, including people running it. And I always hated that so much. It should have been a safe place for writers to bitch.

Now it is, but now it's less writers...