Franklin Leonard

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  • #61
    Re: Franklin Leonard

    Originally posted by Bono View Post
    A contest is a competition. the black list and most things fall under that.
    the black list is not a competition. it's a resource for finding 'good' material. you are not competing against anyone else. you are competing against an industry expectation. your script stands on its own merit.

    when a pro is looking at your script they're not saying i'm looking at ALL the scripts and the best one gets the job. they're looking for the material that speaks to them. they are not looking for the best written one.

    the reviews give the writer legitimacy, that what you're about to read isn't from a hack. if writers better understood the black list and the potential opportunity they could use it to help themselves. that's my opinion.

    i see a lot of, well i got a 5 and it placed in the quarters at Nicholl. they complain that they didn't get an 8 because they thought they were going to get an 8. that's where a writer might be misguided in their own abilities. and instead of rewriting it, to improve it, they complain that they system is rigged.

    if you get four 5s on the black list, guess what, maybe consider it needs a rewrite. when i received 8s and 9s i still rewrote it because i agreed with the review. but that's not the general sentiment of most new writers.

    they're pissed off they didn't get an 8.

    because they believe they deserve an 8. but they don't understand the rating and what it means. it's about how producible (or market ready) that reader feels the script is. we've heard for years that readers recommend like, 1% of all the scripts they read. the black list is using what they feel are industry standards.

    the top lists represent about 5% of the total scripts on the black list. are some reviews inaccurate? probably. but not all of them.

    an OWA would be considered a contest as well. but we don't call it that do we? it's dangerous to misrepresent something as if it's something else. a studio is looking for a thriller script, well they're not going to buy at a rom-com script, right? no, they're going to go to resources that has the genre they're looking for to find the right writer for their project.

    it's akin to saying that the scripts that an agent has is a competition. it's not. they're a resource, too.

    There are Sundance Labs and certain things that you have to be more along to being a pro than an amateur to get selected to them -- but even then -- you're getting chosen out of many. So that's a competition. A contest.
    agreed. yes, you have to be selected-- the very definition of contest. you win something tangible.

    and let's not forget that the traditional contests limit their entries to non-professional writers ($20k and below).

    And just because some people on the black list may be pros, aren't 99% listed scripts by non sold writers putting their stuff up?
    the only scripts that matter, for the most part, are the ones on the top lists. the black list gives attention to those whose average exceeds the community average.

    it doesn't matter what 95% of the scripts are. that's not the point of the site. if a writer gets 4s and wants to pay to host their script on the website, it's not up to the black list to kick them off. they do make recommendations on removing it and rewriting it. at least they did in the FAQs. it's not the black lists's responsibility to tell a writer what to do.

    nor is it the black list's fault if a writer continues to host their script. i mean, there are writers who host their script and have 0 reviews. that's someone who doesn't understand how something can work for or against them.

    and a big difference is that professional writers host their specs on the site.

    So why you can say if just get a score, you can't win a prize, the prize in the black list "contest" would be to get your script noticed by someone that can help sell it or make it or want to rep you? So that's the prize.
    right and when you send out 300 query letters and 25 people request a read, that's a competition, too, the way you put it, everything is a competition.

    my point, which you're diluting, is that the black list is different from a competition and when a writer understands the differences and what it can do for them, they will be able to exploit is to help their script get noticed.

    if i got four 5s on the black list, i'd either tank the script or rewrite it.

    I'm just learning about Imagine Impact from FA4 on this board -- and it sounds great -- but it's not the first of it's kind. It's very much like fellowships and sundance lab and other things writing boot camps where the goal is to find new great writers, and also for companies to make some money off those new great writers. Project greenlight had it's own way of doing it -- but that one that lanched the horror writing team of the first movie to crazy huge success. One of the more successful contest winners of all time -- Marcus Dunstan and Patrick Milton.
    with all due respect, maybe you should dig into what it is before you formulate an opinion on Imagine Impact. the writers that are selected aren't newbie writers. they are, for the most part, professional writers working in the industry, or similar industries that have chops. they are writers that haven't yet hit it big.

    the big difference is that the entrants for Impact 2 are professional working writers. they have no restrictions on who can apply. Cornue sent out a tweet saying, "all pro writers..." summoning them to this Imagine Impact opportunity.

    they are trying to change the development process in the industry.

    i believe you said you were currently unrepped, isn't that correct? Imagine Impact is perfect for you if you have a script that falls within their objectives.

    they aren't going to pay 20 people a $40,000 stipend each for 8 weeks of work just for ****$ and giggles. you'd do it wouldn't you? rewrite a spec you have and get paid $40,000? and the possibility of finding a home for it? getting it made? selling their feature or pilot.

    This is how I see it. Either way it's just arguing semantics isn't it?
    of course, you can see it anyway you want. you want to lump them all into the same bucket, okay.

    sure, grocery shopping is a contest, too. right? if you're the first one in line, you get the pick of the best rack of lamb. winner!

    my suggestion is that anyone who is really serious about finding outlets for their work, that they do their due diligence and learn as much about each opportunity in order to exploit it for your career.

    the better you understand these resources or any for that matter, the better it can help you achieve your goal.

    don't take my word for it. don't take Bono's word for it. research it yourself. find what will work for you. just make sure you understand what a thing is. and what it isn't.

    your career depends on you developing a proper strategy.
    "Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist,- Pablo Picasso

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Franklin Leonard

      Originally posted by Bono View Post
      Barh isn't totally wrong IN the first part of the post...

      Just to help out, yes The Black List still comes out every year and that's free -- a list of the most like scripts by executives that were unsold I believe right? But now it's all murky as sometimes you see scripts by Sorkin on there and other big writers and you're like WTF? And if you write a good bio pic you can make the list. And for some reason there's always at least 2 of the same person on the list in the same year. Always weird...
      no, you are not correct. and it's not murky, imo. only possibly misunderstood.

      when Sorkin comes out with a script and it hasn't gone into production yet, that is distributed within the industry by execs and asst. by sharing, it'll most likely be on the list.

      Social Network made the rounds in 2009. everybody in the industry was reading it. it's an amazing script. a lot of people thought so.

      other scripts on the list in 2009:
      Hanna
      The King's Speech
      Due Date
      If I Stay
      Prisoners
      Social Network

      scripts on the list in 2016:
      Adrift
      Blonde Ambition
      Hotel Artimis
      I Tonya
      The Post

      scripts on the list 2018 with financing and producers attached:

      Harry's All Night Hamburgers - warner bros
      Promising Young Woman - flimnation
      Cobweb - lionsgate
      Covers - universal
      Just the Facts - first look media
      Queens of the Stoneage - sony pictures
      To The Extreme - endeavor content
      Dead Dad's Club - no trace camping
      Happy Anniversary - paramount
      The Liberators - warner bros.
      The Beast - H-collective
      Dark - paramount
      Queen & Slim - make ready, universal

      i don't understand how this misunderstanding about the Annual Black List and The Black List website persists... they are two separate things that are not connected by anything other than Franklin created both and capitalized on the Black List "brand."

      not one script on The Annual Black List is hosted on The Black List website.

      The Annual Black List was started by Franklin Leonard back in, like 2005 or 2006. he was an executive that wanted to know what the industry felt were their favorite scripts that they had read that year that were, as yet, unproduced in that year that received the highest votes by approx 200-ish industry people.

      Sorkin's Social Network was on the list because it did not go into production until the next calendar year.

      you cannot just get on the list. these are scripts circulating in the industry for that year that were sent to buyers and their assistants from Agents and Managers to read with the intention to produce.

      it isn't open to anybody in the world and there is NO connection to The Black List website. ie, your black list hosted script is NOT eligible to get on the list.

      most of the films on The Annual Black List get made in the following years. many of them, at the time the list comes out, are already set up with a financier and/or producers. how do i know this? because the list tells you which ones are already set up.

      these are the best, or rather most popular scripts that circulated the industry that year. i have all the scripts for every year except for 2010 which there was a big lawsuit about 'sharing.'

      So yes I don't think he did that to make money. I bet it wasn't even in the back of his head at the start... then as it went on he said to himself, I should capitalize on the name....

      And then yes he made The Black List 2.0 where you can pay to get your script read on "the black list" but it's not the same thing... and yes that is 100% to make money.

      Just the fact that it's not a different name always annoyed me. Anyone else?
      to reiterate. no one that hosts their script on The Black List website is on The Annual Black List. these are two totally unrelated things.
      Last edited by finalact4; 05-07-2019, 10:17 AM.
      "Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist,- Pablo Picasso

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Franklin Leonard

        Originally posted by ScreenRider View Post
        But the top contests have a better track record when it comes to starting careers and getting scripts produced. Doesn't that show that they have a better percentage of market ready participants?
        how do you come to that assessment? just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean writers aren't benefiting from it. consider this, why would a repped writer host their script on the black list website?

        maybe they feel it's a place where they can send industry folk to take a peak at what someone in the industry has already had to say about it. they wouldn't use it if it didn't help them in some way.

        Do you consider the featured scripts on the Black Lists to be market ready?
        i'm not the one that determines that. nor would i even suggest that i could.

        but i've judged a small contest before, and it was no where close to professional.

        i was a semi-finalist in a well known contest with my third script, and trust me, i know, it was a fvcking mess. good writing. yes. talent. sure. ready? not even close.

        but if a script gets consistently high scores onThe Black List website, then yes, i'd consider that it's a well written story. not just good writing. a good, marketable story.

        that's my opinion.
        "Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist,- Pablo Picasso

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Franklin Leonard

          Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
          most of the films on The Annual Black List get made in the following years.
          Well, that's certainly not true : ) Many do, but not most.

          Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
          you are being judged on how ready your script is, in the opinion of the reader, to be produced, not win a contest. there are working writers with reps whose scripts are on the site.

          and the reality is, whether writers like to admit it or not, only a very small percentage (1 -5%) are ready for representation and ready, or good enough to produce.

          The Black List website isn't there to make a writer's career. it's there to connect a writer with a film maker to make a movie.
          This is all well good and true, and I'm fine with classifying the Black List as more of a screenwriting marketplace/platform for connecting writers and pros than a competition.

          That said, I think part of the continuing confusion about the Black List's purpose and subsequent frustration is its a) ambiguity about its core benefit and b) lack of public proof that the benefit most people are seeking, which is getting contacted by pros, actually happens.

          Let's take a look.

          Ambiguity About Core Benefit
          The BL screed introducing its service said the following: "Yesterday the Black List launched a new service for enabling aspiring screenwriters to get their scripts in front of 1000+ industry insiders...Yesterday morning, the Black List announced what we hope will be the beginning of a paradigm shift in the way screenplays are discovered by people who make movies." https://blcklst.com/about/ (see "The What, The How, and the Why" section)

          This heavily implies that the core benefit of the BL is to connect writers with people who can help them with their projects.

          But guess what? When I wrote a post on here three years ago telling Franklin I saw little ROI from using the BL, he said the following (at this link: http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/...d.php?t=80575)):

          Originally posted by FranklinLeonard View Post
          Personally, I think you’re overlooking the most realistic benefit that the website provides, one that everyone who hosts a script and purchases an evaluation receives: high quality feedback on their script from a reputable source on a relatively quick turnaround.
          Wait, what? This isn't mentioned anywhere in that long screed on the website, or in the "About" section. Sounds a tad misleading to me.

          Lack of Public Proof of Pro Contact
          The "About" section of the BL website says the following: "As a direct result of introductions made on the Black List, dozens of writers have found representation at major talent agencies and management companies, as well as sold or optioned their screenplays." https://blcklst.com/about/

          That sounds awesome! That's the reason most people sign up for the site! Except guess what? It's very easy to make that claim. Why doesn't BL provide any actual numbers to back that statement up? Or high-profile examples of such signings/sales? We've seen sporadic press releases on Deadline over the years (very few), but there is no mention of evidence of any of this "success" on the actual website. Why? I'm returning to my theory that this actual success is extremely few and far between. Which is fine, I understand that the odds are low. But as a service that's paid for, I think it could make more of an effort to provide evidence of any success on the site.

          Let's forget getting contacted by pros. What about numbers regarding how they even just use the site? I asked Franklin if it were possible for him to provide numbers for various metrics (at this link: http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/...d.php?t=80575). This is how he responded (his responses are in the quotes):

          Percentage of pro members that conduct actual searches: "We actually haven’t collected data on searches." Really? I know a site as sophisticated as BL has the capability of doing this. Maybe it just doesn't want people to know this data.

          Percentage of hosted scripts that have gotten one or more downloads without an evaluation: "As of June 2015 (the last time I checked), 24.8%" Why can't this number be posted somewhere on the site so we can get a sense of how non-evaluated scripts are being seen? And be updated as well? We don't even have the right to know whether those scripts are just disappearing into the ether (at the cost of $30 a month)? I know it's common knowledge now on DDP that the vast majority of non-evaluated scripts disappear, but think about all those poor rubes who don't frequent this forum.

          Percentage of pro members that have downloaded a script in the last quarter: "Not a number I have handy." (I find that hard to believe) "There are, on average, roughly 1000 unique industry pro downloads in a given month though, which should give you an order of magnitude on the activity there." So he's able to obtain monthly numbers but not quarterly? (Right). Also, the monthly number is useful data for customers. Why can't he post it on the website instead of having it forced out of him due to writer complaints on screenwriting forums?

          Number of script downloads by genre for the quarter: "This (https://blog.blcklst.com/ratings-and...130#.dhpyxsk9h) focuses on ratings and genre, but the question re: downloads is an interesting one that I’ll direct Terry to look at it in future post on the blog." I'm not sure if he ever actually got around to having Terry do that (he has a habit of promising more transparency on DDP and not following through on it). I do know that it would be more far more useful if he posted this as a chart that was updated regularly on the site rather than as a random blog post that future site visitors would have to search for.

          Number of writers known to have gotten repped/received options through the site: "Again, we don’t have precise numbers on this, principally because it happens often enough that people no longer bother to tell us when it happens." REALLY? If a site that is all about connecting writers and pros finds that those connections happen "often enough," why wouldn't it provide evidence of this on the site? And would customers really just stop telling it about those connections (come on)?


          This all sure sounds like a significant lack of transparency regarding ROI to me. Which is strange considering that it is a site that a) touts from the rooftops how "transparent" it is and b) has made significant noise about how much it loves to collect all types of data.

          Thus, all of the complaints we've heard over the years can't just be chalked up to writers being "pissed off they didn't get an 8." Some of it is just frustration over a lack of clarity over what we're paying for. FL seems to have a habit of saying/promising one thing to appease writers on DDP (where he knows he'll be held accountable) and not providing such information/following through on his site. Maybe that's why he doesn't come here anymore.

          It's great that the Black List has a mission of connecting writers with people who can help them with their projects. But it's also a paying service. And as a paying service, it would be nice to see some evidence of its tangible benefits on the website rather than just vague claims.
          Last edited by UpandComing; 05-08-2019, 09:03 AM.
          "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Franklin Leonard

            i haven't disputed that i'd like to see better transparency. it have stated that it would be beneficial to know who, as in their title, has downloaded my script. i pay hosting fees every month, a business person would expect nothing less.

            you can't judge the value if you don't know who the "whose" are. that's not going to change. people in the industry do use The Black List website as a resource to scripts. would a pro pay a service fee for that? no, because they don't have to.

            Thus, all of the complaints we've heard over the years can't just be chalked up to writers being "pissed off they didn't get an 8." Some of it is just frustration over a lack of clarity over what we're paying for. FL seems to have a habit of saying/promising one thing to appease writers on DDP (where he knows he'll be held accountable) and not providing such information/following through on his site. Maybe that's why he doesn't come here anymore.
            okay, to clarify, i never said, "all of the complaints we've heard over the years can't just be chalked up to writers being "pissed off they didn't get an 8."

            i do stand by what i did say. and i'm speaking from what i see, from my personal experiences. there are certain writers that are pissed off they didn't receive high scores. then they bash the ones that do as if it's rigged or there is favoritism, or somehow someone's conspiring to help only certain people.

            if there's something wrong with a BL review, i say call it out. i can't tell you how many emails i've sent to The Black List website to correct things. if you push hard enough they will look into it.

            remember when JL did that blind submission to the Black List? he paid for 2 reviews. they came back and one he received a 9 and the other a 6. polarizing material for sure. if anyone recalls it was a pilot about the porn industry. and one reviewer was offended by the depiction of his female characters. that's their opinion and they're entitled to it.

            the other day, a writer suggested that JL actually had mediocre scores and after TBL saw that JL was running a blind test, that TBL suddenly changed his scores to 9s. they stated it as fact. i mean, that's absurd.

            i corrected that writer. i provided the link to the JL post that clearly showed that he posted the tread AFTER he paid for and received the reviews.

            that kind of bull$hit hurts a company's reputation and a writer's credibility. neither deserved it. that is never okay.

            there are writers who are never happy that someone else is succeeding. that they somehow didn't earn it. instead of focusing on what they can do to advance their own skills. they criticize someone else's success. i hate it.

            It's great that the Black List has a mission of connecting writers with people who can help them with their projects. But it's also a paying service. And as a paying service, it would be nice to see some evidence of its tangible benefits on the website rather than just vague claims.
            agreed.
            Last edited by finalact4; 05-07-2019, 01:45 PM. Reason: corrected to remove misplaced [quote]
            "Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist,- Pablo Picasso

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Franklin Leonard

              Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
              Originally Posted by UpandComing
              i haven't disputed that i'd like to see better transparency. it have stated that it would be beneficial to know who, as in their title, has downloaded my script. i pay hosting fees every month, a business person would expect nothing less.
              Did you make up this quote and stick my username in there? Because I never said this, and I can't find it anywhere in this or other DDP threads, lol.

              Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
              okay, to clarify, i never said, "all of the complaints we've heard over the years can't just be chalked up to writers being "pissed off they didn't get an 8."
              I didn't say that you specifically said that "all of the complaints we've heard over the years can't just be chalked up to writers being "pissed off they didn't get an 8" (otherwise, I would've put it in quotes). My statement was meant to indicate that the only explanation you seem to bring up for writers' complaints is frustration with not getting an 8. You don't consider any other possible explanations.

              Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
              i do stand by what i did say. and i'm speaking from what i see, from my personal experiences. there are certain writers that are pissed off they didn't receive high scores. then they bash the ones that do as if it's rigged or there is favoritism, or somehow someone's conspiring to help only certain people.

              there are writers who are never happy that someone else is succeeding. that they somehow didn't earn it. instead of focusing on what they can do to advance their own skills. they criticize someone else's success. i hate it.
              Of course I agree that there are certain writers who just complain because they are frustrated with not getting an 8. But it is conspicuous that you spend multiple paragraphs criticizing that, yet do not address any of the specific points I made regarding problematic issues on the BL's part. You dedicate exactly one word to those arguments: "agreed." So it's clear that you're more focused on any problematic issues on behalf of writers than any potential problems on behalf of the BL.

              You have to admit that there appears to be a kind of bias in your responses -- and it wouldn't be that hard to understand, given Tracker's high ranking and status as a Featured Script on the site.
              "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Franklin Leonard

                Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
                i see a lot of, well i got a 5 and it placed in the quarters at Nicholl. they complain that they didn't get an 8 because they thought they were going to get an 8. that's where a writer might be misguided in their own abilities. and instead of rewriting it, to improve it, they complain that they system is rigged.
                It's funny you say that because I got an 8 on the Black List and the same script didn't make past the first round in a contest. I also made semi-finals at AFF and then got a 5 on the Black List. I also got a 7 and a 3 on the same script on the Black List.

                Not complaining. It's a gamble but the BL is one of the few ways to get your foot in the door. I just don't think industry readers in general are as qualified as people pretend. It's subjective of course, but what I mean is that they are not qualified to pick what their bosses would consider winners.

                It's easy to eliminate the 90% of amateurish scripts but the people who can find the potential in the remaining few get paid a lot more than $50 a script.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Franklin Leonard

                  Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
                  Did you make up this quote and stick my username in there? Because I never said this, and I can't find it anywhere in this or other DDP threads, lol.
                  you didn't say it. you're correct.

                  i was deleting the text and simply didn't remove the quote/unquote marks and began typing my response. i've never deliberately misrepresented what another writer has said.

                  my apologies, upandcoming. i've corrected it in my post.

                  this is my statement:
                  i haven't disputed that i'd like to see better transparency. i have stated that it would be beneficial to know who, as in their title, has downloaded my script. i pay hosting fees every month, a business person would expect nothing less.


                  I didn't say that you specifically said that "all of the complaints we've heard over the years can't just be chalked up to writers being "pissed off they didn't get an 8" (otherwise, I would've put it in quotes).

                  actually, you implied it. you made a statement and put what i said in quote marks. if you weren't addressing my comment, why did you put it in quotes? i felt it necessary to correct it, that's all.

                  My statement was meant to indicate that the only explanation you seem to bring up for writers' complaints is frustration with not getting an 8. You don't consider any other possible explanations.
                  see, you're doing it again. i have never said anything about "all the complaints" you're speaking about. i was giving what i feel some writers do. i did NOT say all writers do this. maybe you're reading too much into my statements.

                  i've never said i didn't consider other possible explanations for writer complaints. i wasn't even speaking to "every" or "all" complaints. i was speaking of "specific" comments that i have seen or read from some writers.

                  you're inferring a lot about what i think and believe that i haven't written, and i really wish you wouldn't. i was clarifying what i didn't say.

                  i'm offering my opinion. you don't have to agree with it.

                  Of course I agree that there are certain writers who just complain because they are frustrated with not getting an 8. But it is conspicuous that you spend multiple paragraphs criticizing that, yet do not address any of the specific points I made regarding problematic issues on the BL's part.
                  who are you? the paragraph police? who are you to judge how much time i spend on any topic? or whether i address any responses, let alone all of a poster's comments. or what i choose to respond to or not to respond to?

                  maybe i'm not speaking only your specific points. maybe i'm adding my own commentary. i don't know, and frankly, i don't care. i don't have time to go review everything i've written. and i don't have to address anything i don't choose to. i have a limited amount of time and i post what i have time for. i said what i wanted to say.

                  and more than anything, why do you care what i say? or don't say for that matter?

                  You dedicate exactly one word to those arguments: "agreed." So it's clear that you're more focused on any problematic issues on behalf of writers than any potential problems on behalf of the BL.
                  i'm sorry i didn't give you more than "exactly one word." i'm not even sure what your point is. no need to explain.

                  every time i fight for the information to be corrected on the black list website i am doing it for myself as much as for every other writer who pays to host their scripts, because it's the right thing to do.

                  do i like that they don't provide information that i'd like to see? no. have i been vocal about seeing over the course of the years? yes. i've said it many times. i've commented on reviews that clearly seem problematic. i've posted my opinion.

                  You have to admit that there appears to be a kind of bias in your responses -- and it wouldn't be that hard to understand, given Tracker's high ranking and status as a Featured Script on the site.
                  yeah? and? so what? yeah, i have two scripts that did well. the site works for me. i respect what Franklin has done. it gives writers a platform for their work to be recognized. one that the industry uses. to what extent i have no clue. it's a resource for me. i have never said it is flawless.

                  you don't like my opinions on the subject, that's fine. you're entitled to your opinion. don't read and respond to my posts. but i'm not going to be chased off by someone whose disputing i have a right to my opinion. or am i going to allow someone to put words in my mouth.

                  i clarified my position where i felt it was necessary. that's all.

                  so you know, i find this post by you unnecessarily aggressive.

                  i mean, who pissed in your Cheerios today? oh, wait... it "appears" to be me.
                  "Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist,- Pablo Picasso

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Franklin Leonard

                    Again, I bring up one source of info about the BL readers, LinkedIn.

                    For those with a LI account (free or paid), try this query:

                    LinkedIn - The Black List - current employees - reader in title

                    These are 30 out of 55 total employees from 'The Black List', but my filter (for 'reader') may have reduced this too much. But you can check out some of their LI profiles to see what sorts they are. I recall one previously who boasted about doing 3-5 reads per day.

                    For the kind of stuff I write? Nobody can process intelligently 3-5 of my scripts per day. Maybe 2, if they bust their a$$es.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Franklin Leonard

                      Originally posted by ScreenRider View Post
                      It's funny you say that because I got an 8 on the Black List and the same script didn't make past the first round in a contest. I also made semi-finals at AFF and then got a 5 on the Black List. I also got a 7 and a 3 on the same script on the Black List.
                      imo, a 5 on The Black List is only an indication that a script is not ready, for one reason or another, in that reader's opinion. it doesn't mean that you're not an amazing writer. i think you've already figured that out.

                      and you could get a reader in a contest that completely overlooks an amazing script. i think there was a thread where we talked about this, about how someone could enter the same script in the next year and place in the semis.

                      i assume you did receive additional reviews because of the disparity between a 7 and a 3? you can look at any number of scripts on the top lists on the Black List and they have reviews they don't show. they have low reviews and high reviews. it's very subjective. all of it is.

                      i've always thought of the goal on the black list is to get as many consistent scores as possible. and even when you nail it, it can take a long time to find that one person who loves it.

                      different contests have types of films they seem to like. whether it's more of an indy feel or a drama feel, they have their "thing" that is their kind of brand. the writer that wins the TrackingB contest most likely is not the same writer to win Nicholl. if a writer understands the pros and cons of each opportunity, they have a better chance of spending their dollars on more likely opportunities.

                      it's funny, that reference just happened last week. haha. my point is at no point did the writer consider (that i could tell) that maybe, just maybe their script needed a rewrite. or maybe they should have another review done? and i don't know that it did or didn't. all i know is that if i got a 5 i'd consider it needed more work. that's just me.


                      Not complaining. It's a gamble but the BL is one of the few ways to get your foot in the door. I just don't think industry readers in general are as qualified as people pretend. It's subjective of course, but what I mean is that they are not qualified to pick what their bosses would consider winners.

                      It's easy to eliminate the 90% of amateurish scripts but the people who can find the potential in the remaining few get paid a lot more than $50 a script.
                      you're probably right, but i think there are some good, talented readers, too.

                      i asked an executive once, if they ever disagreed with their reader. this was an executive at a prodco, and she said, "all the time." if she requests the script she reads it, but she also sends it to be covered by their staff reader.

                      i don't know how often that happens, but that was encouraging to hear.
                      "Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist,- Pablo Picasso

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                      • #71
                        Re: Franklin Leonard

                        Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
                        so you know, i find this post by you unnecessarily aggressive.
                        I apologize if you found my post aggressive. I assure you, that wasn't the intention. In fact, my use of "lol" near the beginning is partly an indication that I wasn't annoyed, just amused. Of course, it can be hard to construe one's tone through written statements online, and that's a risk we all run.

                        Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
                        i'm not going to be chased off by someone whose disputing i have a right to my opinion. or am i going to allow someone to put words in my mouth.
                        You said that certain writers only complain because they didn't get an 8. I agreed with you on that point -- so I'm not sure why you followed it up by saying "I stand by what I did say." I never disputed your right to your opinion.

                        I will say that there is a bit of a discrepancy between what you said earlier and later. First this:

                        Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
                        but that's not the general sentiment of most new writers. they're pissed off they didn't get an 8.
                        Then this:

                        Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
                        i do stand by what i did say. and i'm speaking from what i see, from my personal experiences. there are certain writers that are pissed off they didn't receive high scores.
                        There is a bit of a gulf between "most new writers" and "certain writers."

                        In any case, you did indeed agree to my statement that "as a paying service, it would be nice to see some evidence of its tangible benefits on the website rather than just vague claims." So I'm happy to leave all well alone, because I have no argument with you there.
                        "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Franklin Leonard

                          Originally posted by catcon View Post
                          I was aware of the award for an 8+, but I assume you get only one (or two, I think) free reviews (or maybe some deal on hosting) for each paid review with an 8.

                          But there must be some limit. Let's say you pay for one, get an 8, get a freebie, get an 8 or 9 on it, and it metastasizes on and on. Wouldn't there be situations where there are a hundred or more, for really good scripts?

                          Anyway, the post here on DDPro said '22 paid reviews', so I assumed that was the case and that there must be some way to determine this. Thus my question remains: What's the value of so many?
                          sorry, catcon, i missed this last part. the value is that it keeps you on the top lists non-stop. so as long as you have two each quarter with high scores you will always remain the the top quarterly list and if you have 4 rolling every year you'll remain on the top list for the annual list. if you receive two new reviews that are high scores you can technically remain on the monthly top list every month. so you are always visible and your script gets sent out each Monday after you get an 8, if you do get an 8.

                          as far as i know there is no limit an actually i think they may have designed it that way, though i'm not certain.

                          i was shocked myself until i figured it out. some may very well pay for several reviews. i've considered it.
                          "Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist,- Pablo Picasso

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Franklin Leonard

                            Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
                            I apologize if you found my post aggressive. I assure you, that wasn't the intention. In fact, my use of "lol" near the beginning is partly an indication that I wasn't annoyed, just amused. Of course, it can be hard to construe one's tone through written statements online, and that's a risk we all run.
                            sorry, i have a 17 year-old daughter whose use of LOL is always sarcastic, my bad.

                            You said that certain writers only complain because they didn't get an 8. I agreed with you on that point -- so I'm not sure why you followed it up by saying "I stand by what I did say." I never disputed your right to your opinion.
                            we agree on many points. i followed up stating that my references were only to those complains and not ALL complaints.

                            I will say that there is a bit of a discrepancy between what you said earlier and later. First this:

                            [Quote:]
                            Originally Posted by finalact4 View Post
                            but that's not the general sentiment of most new writers. they're pissed off they didn't get an 8.

                            Then this:
                            [Quote:]
                            Originally Posted by finalact4 View Post
                            i do stand by what i did say. and i'm speaking from what i see, from my personal experiences. there are certain writers that are pissed off they didn't receive high scores.

                            There is a bit of a gulf between "most new writers" and "certain writers."
                            no, upandcoming, you do not get to take what i said out of context and twist it. this is what i was talking about.

                            this is what i posted first:*******************************
                            i see a lot of, well i got a 5 and it placed in the quarters at Nicholl. they complain that they didn't get an 8 because they thought they were going to get an 8. that's where a writer might be misguided in their own abilities. and instead of rewriting it, to improve it, they complain that they system is rigged.

                            if you get four 5s on the black list, guess what, maybe consider it needs a rewrite. when i received 8s and 9s i still rewrote it because i agreed with the review. but that's not the general sentiment of most new writers.

                            they're pissed off they didn't get an 8.
                            ************************************************** ******
                            that was the context of the first post you quote. i am speaking specifically to certain new writers that receive low scores and expected high scores.
                            therefore, there is NO gulf. they are one in the same. and if you didn't get that initially, i'm clearing that up here and now.

                            if you're going to quote me, please keep it in context and not try to twist it to make your own point. it is both unfair to me and misrepresents what i said.

                            In any case, you did indeed agree to my statement that "as a paying service, it would be nice to see some evidence of its tangible benefits on the website rather than just vague claims." So I'm happy to leave all well alone, because I have no argument with you there.
                            you've made all the other arguments well enough. i do not feel the need to add to them.

                            as far as i'm concerned, we're good. no hard feelings here.
                            "Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist,- Pablo Picasso

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Franklin Leonard

                              My original question was 'why doesn't Franklin Leonard post here anymore?' If this thread doesn't get him back here, nothing will.

                              I see it would be helpful if the names were clearer.

                              The Annual Black List could just be "The Black List" and the Black List web site could be "The Black List Script Service" or something that could connect it to the brand name but also clearly distinguish it from the completely separate annual list. Like if they had the Nicholl Competition and the Nicholl Coverage Service or something like that.

                              I had suggested on another post that they group together scores, such as 4 to 6 and 7 to 9, so what would previously have been 7s could get more of a 'benefit of the doubt' effect, and more people might read them.

                              Someone said that would discourage people from looking at the best scripts but you'd still have a '10' category and the 8s and 9s would also be in the 7 to 9 group, so readers wouldn't want to miss them.
                              Hobby Writer

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Franklin Leonard

                                Originally posted by barh View Post
                                My original question was 'why doesn't Franklin Leonard post here anymore?' If this thread doesn't get him back here, nothing will.
                                no, i'm sure he's too busy.

                                I see it would be helpful if the names were clearer.

                                The Annual Black List could just be "The Black List" and the Black List web site could be "The Black List Script Service" or something that could connect it to the brand name but also clearly distinguish it from the completely separate annual list. Like if they had the Nicholl Competition and the Nicholl Coverage Service or something like that.
                                no, i wouldn't be for that. there's a legitimacy that comes with using "The Black List." it actually helps a writer. even if the recipient is confused. i would bet that might be one of the reasons for using the brand for the website.

                                I had suggested on another post that they group together scores, such as 4 to 6 and 7 to 9, so what would previously have been 7s could get more of a 'benefit of the doubt' effect, and more people might read them.
                                absolutely totally disagree.

                                your score on the black list is already weighted and averaged to get on the top lists and it appears in on your script. but every review stands on it own merit.

                                as the writer, you select what is public and what is not.

                                it's not about giving a benefit to anyone. it's about trying to treat everyone equally. reviews stand on their own merit, just like it would with a reader at a studio.

                                Someone said that would discourage people from looking at the best scripts but you'd still have a '10' category and the 8s and 9s would also be in the 7 to 9 group, so readers wouldn't want to miss them.
                                no. that's a bad idea, imo. have you hosted a script on the site yet? have you had one evaluated? once you go through the process, it clears up a lot of confusion.
                                "Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist,- Pablo Picasso

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