Defense attorney allowed at a crime scene?

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  • Defense attorney allowed at a crime scene?

    I could ask a cop, but not until Tuesday, and even then it's a creepy question to ask a cop, so do any of you know this one?

    I have a scene where someone's been murdered, and the police are at the crime scene maybe an hour later questioning witnesses.

    If one of the witnesses (not yet a suspect, though he will become one later) called their lawyer on a cell phone ... do the police legally need to let a witness speak to the attorney before they question the witness?

    Or must a suspect be under arrest before they 'have a right to an attorney' ?

    Nevermind the logic of someone giving the cops a reason to suspect them of anything by demanding to call their lawyer at a crime scene ...

    I just wonder, can a lawyer demand entrance to a crime scene before the lawyer's client is questioned as a WITNESS? Do the police have to let the lawyer in?

    Anyone know? All I see on tv is someone who's already a suspect and in custody, demanding a lawyer etc.
    sigpic
    "As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world -
    that is the myth of the atomic age - as in being able to remake ourselves."
    -Mahatma Gandhi.

  • #2
    Re: Defense attorney allowed at a crime scene?

    David Simon touched on this in his book Homicide (which went on to become the non-fiction basis for the tv series). If the witness says something outright - like "I want to speak to a lawyer and I refuse to answer any of your questions until I do so..." - then yeah. But if he or she waffles around ("Well, maybe I maybe should talk to a lawyer..."), then they can legally keep the lawyer away.

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    • #3
      Re: Defense attorney allowed at a crime scene?

      That's a great book.

      If I remember correctly, he also points out how foolish it is to talk to the cops without a lawyer if there is even the remotest possibilty that you are regarded as a suspect.

      Hard to believe the photocopier/polygraph trick actually worked in real life.

      I lent the book to someone so don't have it to hand to cite

      The Complete IfilmPro DEVELOPMENT FORUM (PDF)

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      • #4
        Re: Defense attorney allowed at a crime scene?

        The police can keep everyone out of a crime scene until they're done.

        As for the law, yes they're supposed to allow you an attorney, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will. At the very least they can lead you to believe you're not allowed one, or that it implies your guilt, so if they can get you to change your mind, you're screwed.

        An interesting side note. The statements you sign in relation to a crime - never ever fill one out. They put you at the scene of a crime, verify your participation to whatever extent, and do ninety percent of the prosecutor's work. Think about your miranda rights - "Anything you say CAN and WILL be used against you in a court of law." They don't say that they can and will be used to help you prove your innocence.

        They are sold as a way to explain your side of the story and you are led to believe that you have to fill one out. But you don't have to, and 99 times out of 100, they seal your conviction. They are NEVER EVER used to help you prove your innocence. Even if you are innocent, filling one out almost guarantees that you will get a court date.

        Sorry. Carry on.

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        • #5
          Re: Defense attorney allowed at a crime scene?

          I've spoken to several law enforcement guys and tactics are the same: scare
          the individual to talking. I had US Marshalls on a manhunt come to the hotel
          once in Atlanta. Right before he showed us a photo he went into his speech
          mode: if you don't cooperate we will blah, blah, blah. My husband cut him
          off and told him to get on with it. I saw the photo, recognized the guy, told
          the Marshall, "you just missed him, he went back to Florida." We both walked
          out of that office and left it at that. Even when gathering information that
          has nothing to do with you, cops badger, it's what they do.

          Charli

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          • #6
            Re: Defense attorney allowed at a crime scene?

            Yep. And until you've been caught up in the system, you truly have no idea what lengths they will go to. Truly scary stuff.

            In fact they even had a show on the other night where a kid was accused of a murder. They badgered him for hours and finally broke him and got a false confession. Off to prison he went to await trial. In the meantime, his father came forward with the kid's stamped passport, plane tickets and other documents proving he was in Brazil at the time of the murder. They even produced a dentist x-ray on the very day of the murder because he needed emergency dental work done IN BRAZIL. It still took nine months to get him out of prison, and only after one of the cops finally thought something didn't seem right (which they even said this kind of turnaround for a cop is unheard of). Even then, they kept him on house arrest until they finally dropped the charges.

            If they want you bad enough...

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            • #7
              Re: Defense attorney allowed at a crime scene?

              Sorry, I just love this subject, so I have to add another thing - sort of a beat the system tip.

              If you are ever convicted of a crime, however small, you are given an opportunity to say something before sentencing. Basically the judge gives you the floor and most people use that time to plead for mercy, even if they are innocent because they figure they're beat.

              However, you can use that time to do more constructive things. And since the judge gives you the floor, he cannot take it back. You can speak literally for days if you wish. If the prosecution suppressed documents that may have proven your innocence, or if your attorney neglected to enter the documents (statements from character witnesses, statements from witnesses of the incident, etc.), you can enter that evidence into the court record at that time. It won't do you any good at the moment, but it will if you get a retrial. You see, if you get a retrial, for the most part, you cannot refer to documents that weren't introduced in the first trial. But since you introduce them, they now become available for the retrial, even though they were initially supressed or neglected.

              You can basically start to set a retrial in motion before your first one is even over. Especially if you detail the incompetence of your attorney, and the Constitutional abuse of the prosecution. Even if they are issues that are hard to substantiate, the fact that you raise the issues alone improves your chances of being retried. If you raise those issues after sentencing, you are out of luck.

              Again, sorry for the tangent. This is a subject I've sort of enjoyed as a hobby, so take it only for that.

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              • #8
                Re: Defense attorney allowed at a crime scene?

                Thanks everyone for the advice! It'll help.

                Originally posted by RoscoeP
                ... If the prosecution suppressed documents that may have proven your innocence, or if your attorney neglected to enter the documents (statements from character witnesses, statements from witnesses of the incident, etc.), you can enter that evidence into the court record at that time. It won't do you any good at the moment, but it will if you get a retrial. You see, if you get a retrial, for the most part, you cannot refer to documents that weren't introduced in the first trial. But since you introduce them, they now become available for the retrial, even though they were initially supressed or neglected.
                And that's a very interesting tangent to think about!
                sigpic
                "As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world -
                that is the myth of the atomic age - as in being able to remake ourselves."
                -Mahatma Gandhi.

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                • #9
                  Re: Defense attorney allowed at a crime scene?

                  And I completely brain farted when I wrote that. Rather than retrial, I meant appeal. Sorry. You can't enter new evidence in an "appeal."

                  The point is, 99.99% of all people found guilty just squander away their opportunity to speak when the judge offers it to them.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Defense attorney allowed at a crime scene?

                    I missed that too but I knew what you meant.

                    JUDGE: Does the defendant have anything to say?
                    ME: Yes, my attorney said I should say something for my re-trial!
                    JUDGE: You mean, for your appeal?
                    ME (glaring at my attorney): Yeah, that too.

                    Still, an interesting point you have.
                    sigpic
                    "As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world -
                    that is the myth of the atomic age - as in being able to remake ourselves."
                    -Mahatma Gandhi.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Defense attorney allowed at a crime scene?

                      Actually your attorney would advise against you doing anything but pleading for mercy. First of all, if you're entering your own evidence, you most certainly will be claiming your representation was incompetent.

                      Also, attorneys sometimes make deals with prosecutors about what evidence each will enter. So again, you'll be not only claiming your attorney is an idiot, you'll potentially be exposing back room deals.

                      Also, frequently prosecutors enter evidence after deadlines and the attorneys often allow it. In theory, they do it because I guess they figure someday that same prosecutor will cut them a break if they're up against them again. But often times the favor isn't returned during your case. Anyway, you'll again be pointing out the attorney's incompetence by allowing the prosecution to enter evidence after the deadline.

                      If you think I'm kidding, I'm not. I read the transcripts from a huge federal case where the prosecution entered over a dozen multi-page documents without presenting copies to the defense attorneys. The defense attorneys only asked for a fifteen minute recess to review the evidence (that were bank documents so complex they would have needed days to understand them in relation to the case at hand). Even the judge repeatedly tried to prod the attorneys to object to the evidence. They did not.

                      The judge even pulled them to a sidebar and told them they should at least object because even if it was overruled, it least it would be in the court record so it could be useful in an appeal. Nope. Didn't object. And again, this was a huge case that even made the national news. So what kind of representation do you think you're going to get for a more run of the mill case?

                      Anyway, sorry to ramble. Like I said, it's a hobby. I find the stuff fascinating and frightening at the same time.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Defense attorney allowed at a crime scene?

                        And since the judge gives you the floor, he cannot take it back. You can speak literally for days if you wish.


                        I doubt this.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Defense attorney allowed at a crime scene?

                          I don't mean nonstop, there would be recesses. And yes, if you simply spoke to hear your own voice, that would probably be a different issue.

                          But if you were giving an intelligent presentation that logically progressed, that justified the amount of time taken, you could take the time you needed.

                          So days? In reality, probably not because it would be tough to find enough one needed to talk about that long. It was just to illustrate a point.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Defense attorney allowed at a crime scene?

                            I would not see any reason why a witness could not call a lawyer while still at a crime scene. Many LEOs(law enforcement officers) want to seperate witnesses at a scene to prevent them from mixing up details or to change events. Unless you are under arrest a witness could leave a scene or choose not to answer any questions until legal counsel arrives.

                            For more details see; www.copsnwriters.com

                            Beefy

                            I'd rather get bank credit, than screen credit.

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