INCEPTION - Nolan's masterpiece!

[Biohazard]

Re: INCEPTION - Nolan's masterpiece!

I didn't think the fact that it was a corporate heist made it weaker. I wasn't sitting in the theater wishing the stakes were higher. And like others have mentioned it's not simply "get a guy to break up his father's company", but to break up an energy monopoly on which the entire world depends.

I get the point you're making. However, films benefit greatly from immediacy.

If failure meant something terrible will happen to the world AT THAT MOMENT, then you have an engaged audience.

If failure means that we will all pay $.30 more for gas half a decade from now...

[Rantanplan]

Re: INCEPTION - Nolan's masterpiece!

I didn't think the fact that it was a corporate heist made it weaker. I wasn't sitting in the theater wishing the stakes were higher. And like others have mentioned it's not simply "get a guy to break up his father's company", but to break up an energy monopoly on which the entire world depends. I mean those Ocean's guys were just stealing sh!t. I was definitely invested in the story and the success of the heist. And like NePatsFan I'm pretty sure Cobb's A Goal was to go home to his kids, and the heist was the means to that end.

But more to the point, I usually find it kind of obnoxious when people start in with the "it would be better if"s. Because most of the time their ideas are nowhere close to being better. Usually they're of the head-slappingly obvious cliche variety. I mean Nolan spent 10 years writing this movie. We saw it once or twice, gave it some cursory thought, and now we're going to pop in and announce the so-called obvious ways it could have been better? It's kind of like on the Script Pages forum or TriggerStreet or something where people who have poured blood sweat and tears into a piece of writing have to deal with feedback from people who skimmed it. The suggestions often involve completely changing everything to fit what the reader/viewer expected, instead of finding the weak spots in what the writer/director wanted to tell/show us. And yes, sometimes the work/movie is truly terrible and there are ways that it could have been better. But how is "it would be better if it was this completely different story I just came up with off the top of my head" helpful or insightful at all?

It's just part of a discussion. People see a movie and discuss the elements that worked or didn't work for them, no biggie

I'm sure you have seen movies and disliked certain aspects of them that others here have argued in favor of...

[MacG]

Re: INCEPTION - Nolan's masterpiece!

I didn't think the fact that it was a corporate heist made it weaker. I wasn't sitting in the theater wishing the stakes were higher. And like others have mentioned it's not simply "get a guy to break up his father's company", but to break up an energy monopoly on which the entire world depends. I mean those Ocean's guys were just stealing sh!t. I was definitely invested in the story and the success of the heist. And like NePatsFan I'm pretty sure Cobb's A Goal was to go home to his kids, and the heist was the means to that end.

But more to the point, I usually find it kind of obnoxious when people start in with the "it would be better if"s. Because most of the time their ideas are nowhere close to being better. Usually they're of the head-slappingly obvious cliche variety. I mean Nolan spent 10 years writing this movie. We saw it once or twice, gave it some cursory thought, and now we're going to pop in and announce the so-called obvious ways it could have been better? It's kind of like on the Script Pages forum or TriggerStreet or something where people who have poured blood sweat and tears into a piece of writing have to deal with feedback from people who skimmed it. The suggestions often involve completely changing everything to fit what the reader/viewer expected, instead of finding the weak spots in what the writer/director wanted to tell/show us. And yes, sometimes the work/movie is truly terrible and there are ways that it could have been better. But how is "it would be better if it was this completely different story I just came up with off the top of my head" helpful or insightful at all?

The OCEAN'S films are by no means high art, but there is more going on than just a bunch of guys stealing ****. ELEVEN and THIRTEEN are actually revenge pictures at heart: in the former, get back at Terry Benedict for stealing Tess from Danny; in the latter, get back at Willie Bank for almost killing Ruben. If just so happens the best way to take down these guys is by going after their wealth.

Cobb getting back to his kids is motivation, yeah, but the stakes aren't that high. There is an artificial ticking clock Nolan imposes with the 10-hour Sydney to L.A. flight that it really can be extended at any time on account Saito bought the friggin' airline. (It would have worked better had, as one of the characters suggested, he merely bought the entire upper cabin; at these there is risk of an outsider popping in and seeing what's going on.) But if he owns the airline -- and even has at least one of the flight crew working for him on the dream-heist, as evident with the stewardess plugging everyone in -- you're telling me Cobb & Saito couldn't come up with contingency plans if they didn't succeed in time? How 'bout having the pilot state some of technical glitch and circle round LAX a couple of times? How 'bout the cleaning crew be barred from the upper level for an extra 30 minutes post-landing? How 'bout telling the driver awaiting Cillian Murphy that he got held up at Customs and will be another few minutes?

Also, Nolan didn't spend ten years writing INCEPTION.

While he was doing INSOMNIA and talking with the WB brass, he mentioned how he had always wanted to do a film about dreams. They said, "great, go write it on spec and we'll take a look."

And even if he HAD spent ten years writing it, so what? By virtue of that fact no one is allowed to criticize him or the film because he clearly crafted the superior story? No one else's idea could possibly be better or less convoluted? Gimme a fvckin' break. By that logic, George Lucas and the prequels should be untouchable since he had worked out a rough back story for them during the writing of A NEW HOPE in '74.

Look, I'm not interested in going around personally attacking anyone for liking the movie, but I resent the condescending tone I pick up from some individuals who clearly look down their nose at people who hated the film and attempt to point out valid weaknesses in the narrative.

The one thing I will give Nolan credit for, though, is making INCEPTION virtually impervious to sustained criticism by having created such a convoluted and messy film. Any time someone tries to poke holes in it, all anyone has to do is talk about the "meaning" behind it all and go off on tangents about what this scene or that scene was really about vs what Nolan put on screen. I'm fine for interpretation in film -- that doesn't bother me, per se -- but a movie should be "intellectually congenial" on its surface. I shouldn't have to read theory after theory in order to come away thinking I kinda-sorta get what happened.

[MacG]

Re: INCEPTION - Nolan's masterpiece!

Makes you wonder why Nolan's the one making blockbusters and we're the ones d!cking around on the internet, doesn't it?

Lamest comeback ever....

[NePatsFan]

Re: INCEPTION - Nolan's masterpiece!

In order to get home to see his kids, a highly skilled thief haunted by the memory of his deceased wife must enter the mind of a multi-billion dollar oil company heir through dream invasion and plant the idea of breaking up the company.

Is that not the plot of Inception? Because that's the movie I saw.

Who is the hero? - a highly skilled thief.
What is the hero attempting to do? - plant the idea.
What is standing in the hero's way? - the memory of his wife.
Why must the hero succeed? - to get home to his kids.

Hero - Goal - Antagonist - Stakes

So, if I really wanted some money and started playing the lottery like crazy... my goal would simply be to win the lottery, and not to win the money I originally wanted?

[Biohazard]

Re: INCEPTION - Nolan's masterpiece!

So, if I really wanted some money and started playing the lottery like crazy... my goal would simply be to win the lottery, and not to win the money I originally wanted?

Real life is not a movie. Inception is. So let's stay on topic, because real life doesn't need loglines.

The OCEAN'S films are by no means high art, but there is more going on than just a bunch of guys stealing ****. ELEVEN and THIRTEEN are actually revenge pictures at heart: in the former, get back at Terry Benedict for stealing Tess from Danny; in the latter, get back at Willie Bank for almost killing Ruben. If just so happens the best way to take down these guys is by going after their wealth.

Cobb getting back to his kids is motivation, yeah, but the stakes aren't that high. There is an artificial ticking clock Nolan imposes with the 10-hour Sydney to L.A. flight that it really can be extended at any time on account Saito bought the friggin' airline. (It would have worked better had, as one of the characters suggested, he merely bought the entire upper cabin; at these there is risk of an outsider popping in and seeing what's going on.) But if he owns the airline -- and even has at least one of the flight crew working for him on the dream-heist, as evident with the stewardess plugging everyone in -- you're telling me Cobb & Saito couldn't come up with contingency plans if they didn't succeed in time? How bought having the pilot state some of technical glitch and circle round LAX a couple of times? How 'bout the cleaning crew be barred from the upper level for an extra 30 minutes post-landing? How 'bout telling the driver awaiting Cillian Murphy that he got held up at Customs and will be another few minutes?

Also, Nolan didn't spend ten years writing INCEPTION.

While he was doing INSOMNIA and talking with the WB brass, he mentioned how he had always wanted to do a film about dreams. They said, "great, go write it on spec and we'll take a look."

And even if he HAD spent ten years writing it, so what? By virtue of that fact no one is allowed to criticize him or the film because he clearly crafted the superior story? No one else's idea could possibly be better or less convoluted? Gimme a fvckin' break. By that logic, George Lucas and the prequels should be untouchable since he had worked out a rough back story for them during the writing of A NEW HOPE in '74.

Look, I'm not interested in going around personally attacking anyone for liking the movie, but I resent the condescending tone I pick up from some individuals who clearly look down their nose at people who hated the film and attempt to point out valid weaknesses in the narrative.

The one thing I will give Nolan credit for, though, is making INCEPTION virtually impervious to sustained criticism by having created such a convoluted and messy film. Any time someone tries to poke holes in it, all anyone has to do is talk about the "meaning" behind it all and go off on tangents about what this scene or that scene was really about vs what Nolan put on screen. I'm fine for interpretation in film -- that doesn't bother me, per se -- but a movie should be "intellectually congenial" on its surface. I shouldn't have to read theory after theory in order to come away thinking I kinda-sorta get what happened.

Great post, MacG.

[NePatsFan]

Re: INCEPTION - Nolan's masterpiece!

Real life is not a movie. Inception is. So let's stay on topic, because real life doesn't need loglines.

Speak for yourself!! Every morning I wake up I make logline for myself regarding the day's trials and tribulations.

[thirdman23]

Re: INCEPTION - Nolan's masterpiece!

How 'bout having the pilot state some of technical glitch and circle round LAX a couple of times? How 'bout the cleaning crew be barred from the upper level for an extra 30 minutes post-landing? How 'bout telling the driver awaiting Cillian Murphy that he got held up at Customs and will be another few minutes?

First off, those kind of suggestions are absurd and you probably know this. It's a film. If any of those things made it into any film, it would be a joke.

Again, the stakes were raised once they got into level 1 and realized death would lead to limbo. The stakes continually raised from that point forward and I've fully detailed how the conflict rises. Cobb stats "we have to do the job, and do it quickly" so that they don't get killed in any of the levels. They don't have time to dick around. They at least have to plant the idea in Fischer's subconcious and get it to stick so that they aren't ambushed by his perceptions when they return to level 1. Finishing the job is the only safe way to get out of dream space, I think Cobb made that perfectly clear.

I'm all for people having differing opinions about films. Especially a film that is as open-ended as this. But I've never seen people cherry-pick arguments the way the two of you have. Why come to a forum to talk about screenwriting if you have no interest in getting in an actual debate about the film?

Frankly, this is really only the second time I've posted on this forum. The first time I came on looking for a LOST debate, but basically got a "let's agree to disagree", but at least he was rather respectful about it. Apparently no one on this forum wants to actually debate the merits of any work.

[instant_karma]

Re: INCEPTION - Nolan's masterpiece!

I do intend to see this a second time at some point, but one thing I don't think a second viewing will change for me is the fact that I think the entering dreams to steal ideas is inherently more exciting than entering dreams to plant ideas.

Yeah, I bunch of characters spouted some pseudo-psychological gobbledygook explaining why doing so was so much tougher than the stealing side of things, but I just kept thinking that if all you want to do is plant an idea in a target and you're willing to abduct them, why not go for good old fashioned Manchurian Candidate style post hypnotic suggestion and tell them to break up the company?

I know Nolan needed to bring the inception concept to the fore so we could eventually have the revelation about the guilt of Leo having driven his wife to suicide, but I don't think the son with daddy issues was the most compelling way to achieve this.

[vstm10]

Re: INCEPTION - Nolan's masterpiece!

Haven't read the full thread -- so forgive me if this was already clarified but...


WHY?????


1) ...didn't Cobb ask his father to move to Paris with the kids? I couldn't stop thinking about this throughout the film (whenever I wasn't dozing off).

2) Cobb loves his wife SOOOO much that he uses her as an experiment to see if he can implant ideas? And a cruel one at that? WTF? What a flimsy forced plot point.

Having said that -- this movie will win the Oscar.


PS. a billionaire flying commercial????

[asjah8]

Re: INCEPTION - Nolan's masterpiece!

I know Nolan needed to bring the inception concept to the fore so we could eventually have the revelation about the guilt of Leo having driven his wife to suicide, but I don't think the son with daddy issues was the most compelling way to achieve this.

/agrees with karma. the kids really don't have anything to do with the story except to provide a reason for going. they're not even a full goal, but rather, a context for a goal. imho, it's a fractured throughline. still fun to watch, interesting as hell, and worth spending to see on the big screen, but the story didn't move me emotionally.

[Mycroftbrett]

Re: INCEPTION - Nolan's masterpiece!

I think Nolan may have over-estimated (some of the audiences) ability to coalesce the paradigms within their own dream experience and the film.

[Richmond Weems]

Re: INCEPTION - Nolan's masterpiece!

...one thing I don't think a second viewing will change for me is the fact that I think the entering dreams to steal ideas is inherently more exciting than entering dreams to plant ideas.

I'm not going to see it a second time, but definitely agree with the above.

Personally, I wasn't wowed by it. I thought it was a great opportunity to actually be a little, I don't know..."dreamy" and surreal as opposed to what comes down to a standard action flick with a lot of slow mo. (Seriously? The dream within the dream within the dream is a James Bond flick?) Maybe Nolan should've taken a gander at Kurosawa's Dreams.

Anyway, I am a big fan of Nolan's, but not a big fan of this movie. I liked it. But only as a friend.

HH

[Gwai Lo]

Re: INCEPTION - Nolan's masterpiece!

Maybe Nolan should've taken a gander at Kurosawa's Dreams.

Funny, I just saw a double feature of DREAMS and THE LOWER DEPTHS in the theater on Wednesday night. Good stuff.

[MacG]

Re: INCEPTION - Nolan's masterpiece!

First off, those kind of suggestions are absurd and you probably know this. It's a film. If any of those things made it into any film, it would be a joke.

Those were examples -- however ludicrous they may be / impractical to put into the film -- to bolster my point that the 10-hour flight time is a rather flimsy "ticking clock."

I don't care if it's a film. I'm being told that this team has 10 hours to complete their job because that's how long the trip from Sydney to L.A. is.

The issue of "we have to do the job quickly or we'll be killed / stuck in limbo" never entered the equation until they're in Level One and realize Fischer has had "defensive training" against dream-theft.

The fact they didn't know this in all the research they did on the guy is another cop-out. Why not have the team find out before hand and up the stakes before they even enter Level 1? THAT is your ticking clock right there vs. the lame-ass plane flight.

Again, the stakes were raised once they got into level 1 and realized death would lead to limbo. The stakes continually raised from that point forward and I've fully detailed how the conflict rises. Cobb stats "we have to do the job, and do it quickly" so that they don't get killed in any of the levels. They don't have time to dick around. They at least have to plant the idea in Fischer's subconcious and get it to stick so that they aren't ambushed by his perceptions when they return to level 1. Finishing the job is the only safe way to get out of dream space, I think Cobb made that perfectly clear.

My eyes literally glazed over trying to understand what you just said here, dude....

I'm all for people having differing opinions about films. Especially a film that is as open-ended as this. But I've never seen people cherry-pick arguments the way the two of you have. Why come to a forum to talk about screenwriting if you have no interest in getting in an actual debate about the film?

Are you serious? First you claim I'm cherry-picking arguments, then you state I shouldn't be at a screenwriting forum if I'm not interested in having an actual debate? WTF do you think I'm trying to do? I'm discussing what I perceive are deficiencies in the Nolan's screenplay and you're ostensibly saying to me, "That's stupid."

But that you for validating my believe that fans of INCEPTION have no problem staring down their nose at anyone who should dare disagree with them.

Frankly, this is really only the second time I've posted on this forum. The first time I came on looking for a LOST debate, but basically got a "let's agree to disagree", but at least he was rather respectful about it. Apparently no one on this forum wants to actually debate the merits of any work.

What's the point in debating something like LOST or INCEPTION if all you do is claim those you don't agree with are wrong?

If you don't like the forums or how they're run, don't let the door hit your @ss on the way out....