Oh Dog, here we go again...

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  • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

    Originally posted by nativeson View Post
    Apples and oranges. The NEW Star Wars is a NEW story. Clearly, many people take issue with protags/Heros in 'existing' stories. Simply swapping race or sex arbitrarily -- if your TRULY open-minded -- could also be seen as crass commercialism. Want a new black hero? Why not write a NEW story for a new black hero. It boggles the mind how we have to change existing stories and traditions to not be seen as racist while totally ignoring the obvious -- creating a new black, Hispanic, Asian, etc. hero. We're writers aren't we? WTF?! Why aren't we REALLY creating something new? BTW, I'd go see a black bond, but lack of creativity seems to be the real issue in all this hyperbole.


    P.S. Nobody really gives a sh!t what storm troopers look like under the mask. They're STORM TROOPERS.
    So you actually think the reason there aren't more minority heroes is because screenwriters aren't delivering the goods? That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

    You obviously haven't read about the other Sony emails in regards to casting African-Americans as leads.




    P.S. Most people aren't looking for a "Black Bond." Being open to a Black actor playing an iconic character isn't the same thing as wanting a story where said character is re-imagined with a "Black" attitude.
    "I was dreamin' when I wrote this, forgive me if it goes astray." - Prince

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    • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

      Originally posted by Furious Anjel View Post
      So you actually think the reason there aren't more minority heroes is because screenwriters aren't delivering the goods? That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

      You obviously haven't read about the other Sony emails in regards to casting African-Americans as leads.




      P.S. Most people aren't looking for a "Black Bond." Being open to a Black actor playing an iconic character isn't the same thing as wanting a story where said character is re-imagined with a "Black" attitude.
      Whole lotta projection goin' on there. I'm not the evil exec boogieman, dude. Just posting about the elephant in the room.

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      • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

        Originally posted by nativeson View Post
        Whole lotta projection goin' on there. I'm not the evil exec boogieman, dude. Just posting about the elephant in the room.
        Is it a pink elephant?
        "I was dreamin' when I wrote this, forgive me if it goes astray." - Prince

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        • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

          Originally posted by Furious Anjel View Post
          Is it a pink elephant?
          No, it's the totally ignored issue of artistic integrity, instead of the same, tired old witch-hunting [email protected]

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          • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

            Originally posted by nativeson View Post
            What I AM saying is it's lazy storytelling to change sex or race with an existing story line and character
            It's an EVOLVING story line and character.

            Or else you'd be insisting that Bond was a) still set in the 50's b) dead or c) somewhere around 95 years old.

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            • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

              Originally posted by nativeson View Post
              No, it's the totally ignored issue of artistic integrity, instead of the same, tired old witch-hunting [email protected]
              Definitely a pink elephant. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. But blaming writers for the decisions a bunch of execs are making...
              "I was dreamin' when I wrote this, forgive me if it goes astray." - Prince

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              • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                Originally posted by Furious Anjel View Post
                Definitely a pink elephant. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. But blaming writers for the decisions a bunch of execs are making...
                Nice inaccurate jab. I don't blame writers for that, AND the three examples I cited DID deliver the goods. Other than your scant allusion to writers creating original content for minority characters (I'm assuming that's what 'deliver the goods' was alluding to), NOBODY else has been posting about this. The attitude that somehow arbitrarily swapping out actors in established franchises is anywhere near as legit as creating original story and character content? This, I DO blame writers for. For a refresher, note the deafening lack of posts regarding what I've pointed out, or... perhaps richter's last post for a more overt example

                To him I might say... Don't get sick. Take some Dramamine and write something original

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                • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                  Originally posted by nativeson View Post
                  The attitude that somehow arbitrarily swapping out actors in established franchises is anywhere near as legit as creating original story and character content?
                  You still haven't been able to come up with an answer to my post.

                  James Bond was originally conceived as a suave British spy who can be a tough guy when need be. That's it. There are 11 novels prior to "You Only Live Twice" where this is who he is, and his family background is not specified. Which leaves a lot of latitude for casting suave, British actors who can be tough guys.

                  Daniel Craig is a suave British actor who can play a tough guy when need be. The only difference is that the color of his hair is blond. But that hasn't been a big deal.

                  Idris Elba is a suave British actor who can play a tough guy when need be. The only difference is that the color of his skin is black.

                  Why do you think that would be such a big deal?

                  Do you genuinely think Elba's skin color would make such a drastically significant difference in the world of Bond? Especially considering that so many aspects of the franchise have been updated to fit the 21st century?

                  Please do tell. You keep evading that point, and your argument against his casting is pretty weak right now.
                  "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

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                  • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                    Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
                    You still haven't been able to come up with an answer to my post.

                    James Bond was originally conceived as a suave British spy who can be a tough guy when need be. That's it. There are 11 novels prior to "You Only Live Twice" where this is who he is, and his family background is not specified. Which leaves a lot of latitude for casting suave, British actors who can be tough guys.

                    Daniel Craig is a suave British actor who can play a tough guy when need be. The only difference is that the color of his hair is blond. But that hasn't been a big deal.

                    Idris Elba is a suave British actor who can play a tough guy when need be. The only difference is that the color of his skin is black.

                    Why do you think that would be such a big deal?

                    Do you genuinely think Elba's skin color would make such a drastically significant difference in the world of Bond? Especially considering that so many aspects of the franchise have been updated to fit the 21st century?

                    Please do tell. You keep evading that point, and your argument against his casting is pretty weak right now.
                    Idris is a great actor who would make a great super spy for another agency. He is not Bond. Daniel Craig's last three bond pics were in the 21st century, so the 'update' argument is silly. Idris is still not Bond. Despite your fanatical desire to see Idris as Bond, changing the appearance of a character in an established franchise changes the character. Period.

                    If you want to see Idris as a superspy, write an original character and original story for Idris as a superspy.

                    Anything less than that is an imitation.

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                    • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                      Originally posted by nativeson View Post
                      Despite your fanatical desire to see Idris as Bond, changing the appearance of a character in an established franchise changes the character. Period.
                      Bond is an essence. His only defining traits (as originally established by Fleming with his first book) involve his personality and his skill set.

                      Appearance has nothing to do with who he is. That's just surface. That's why a blond Bond can be just as effective as a dark-haired one. And a black Bond can be as effective as a white one.

                      But apparently you think that a person with black skin is remarkably different from a person with white skin, regardless of what intrinsic qualities they may share. And that's just sad in this day and age.

                      Good riddance.
                      "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

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                      • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                        Originally posted by nativeson View Post
                        Zzzz... 'Arbitrarily changing the race or sex of an established character in an established story' is sad, and nothing more than a marketing gimmick to stay employed. It's an artistically shallow enterprise that commands far less respect than creating a NEW hero and a NEW story. Given a choice, I'd see a new story first. I'd rather be known as the visionary who created something new, than the hack marionette who made superficial changes to make a buck.
                        To be honest, this is what is troubling and just sad to me. The fact that no matter what film is being made (original, remake) that acting ability isn't considered first, rather race is. Casting a black or any other minority in an update of an existing property shouldn't be called a gimmick. If a Michael B Jordan is right for the role then cast him. If Chris Hemsworth is right for it then cast him. If Randall Park is right for it then cast him. Hell if Michelle Rodriguez is right for it then cast her. My point is that unless we are casting a movie about slavery, etc then roles should be cast based on talent!

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                        • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                          Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
                          Bond is an essence. His only defining traits (as originally established by Fleming with his first book) involve his personality and his skill set.

                          Appearance has nothing to do with who he is. That's just surface. That's why a blond Bond can be just as effective as a dark-haired one. And a black Bond can be as effective as a white one.

                          But apparently you think that a person with black skin is remarkably different from a person with white skin, regardless of what intrinsic qualities they may share. And that's just sad in this day and age.

                          Good riddance.
                          Nonsense. You can apply that to any character in any franchise with any sex or race. Once you change it, it becomes something new. It can be something great and something very entertaining -- but no longer the same character. Idris as bond, or Jolie as Bond, or Banderas as Bond may all be very entertaining, but they are no longer Bond. They are something new. You have a fetish for redefining things, I get that. But understand, once you redefine it, it is NO LONGER the same thing. I know this. Audiences know this.

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                          • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                            Originally posted by nativeson View Post
                            But understand, once you redefine it, it is NO LONGER the same thing. I know this. Audiences know this.
                            Okay. Then go ahead and tell me exactly how you define Bond.

                            Is he...British? Because Sean Connery was not.

                            Is he...Scottish? Because Pierce Brosnan was not.

                            Is he...dark-haired? Because Daniel Craig is not.

                            Yet I bet you don't have any problems with any of these Bonds. Because white skin is the only thing you see as the character's defining quality. Which is utterly ridiculous.
                            "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

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                            • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                              Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
                              Okay. Then go ahead and tell me exactly how you define Bond.
                              The wheels on the bus go round and round...

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                              • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                                Originally posted by nativeson View Post
                                The wheels on the bus go round and round...
                                That's not an answer. It's a cop-out.

                                But it's understandable that you don't want to say what you really think -- that the only thing that matters about James Bond is that he's a white guy.
                                "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

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