Oh Dog, here we go again...

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  • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

    Originally posted by ChadStrohl View Post
    I said earlier I think Elba would make a fine James Bond but better served as a new cultural icon (to add... because it would avoid crap like this.) But that's ok...
    I'll start with this 'cause there's actually no crap to avoid. The only thing to avoid is narrow-mindedness 'cause (in reference to your second post on this subject) there is no "cultural rift" involved with James Bond being black.

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    • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

      Originally posted by nativeson View Post
      No, it's the totally ignored issue of artistic integrity, instead of the same, tired old witch-hunting [email protected]
      There's no artistic integrity involved when making a movie about a super spy who, in any version of reality, would be dead as soon as he opened his mouth.

      Pick another battler when debating the non-issue of Idris Elba playing James Bond and artistic integrity.

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      • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

        Originally posted by entlassen View Post
        Pretty much all major action franchises today can trace their creative lineage back to Bond. Indiana Jones only came to be because Spielberg wasn't allowed to direct a Bond movie, and they even cast Connery as Jones's father in the third one as a tip of hat to the character. I don't know about the Ludlum novels, but the Jason Bourne movies stole a whole bunch of stuff from both the Bond books and the films. So did Nolan's Batman trilogy.

        Jack Ryan, Jack Bauer, The Transporter, xXx, Bryan Mills, Jack Reacher, and Ethan Hunt are all variations on the universal expert/jack-of-all-trades protagonist that was started by Bond. There are also a slew of imitators on TV. Even Bruce Lee's Enter the Dragon was conceived as a Hong Kong-style Bond movie. The same applies to John Shaft.
        That's all well and good (and arguable), but it still doesn't rebut the points I and others made in regards to Bond and Shaft. That's okay, though. You keep on keepin' on and by 2050, it won't matter what either of us say or think 'cause white people will be the minority in America and you'll have plenty of opportunity to fight the power.

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        • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

          Unequalproductions:

          Okay, find me some Hollywood movies where the central gimmick involves a white hero killing blacks. Bonus points if that white actor later got up on a stage and joked about how great it was that he killed all the black people in the movie.

          60words:

          Both Bond and Shaft had definite racial identities. The difference is that Bond's is less explicit than Shaft's. That doesn't mean that the identity isn't there or that it doesn't matter.

          UpandComing:

          That's right, nationality is different from ethnicity. That's how a black person can live in Scotland without being ethnically Scottish, or live in Japan without being ethnically Japanese.

          And since Bond's lineage is Scottish and French by ethnicity but English by nationality, you just kind of undermined your own argument, as Bond is of Scottish and French blood, which means he's white by definition.

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          • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

            Originally posted by entlassen View Post
            60words:

            Both Bond and Shaft had definite racial identities. The difference is that Bond's is less explicit than Shaft's. That doesn't mean that the identity isn't there or that it doesn't matter.
            How has Bond's racial identity ever mattered in relation to the story and themes, and ESPECIALLY in relation to a present-day Bond?

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            • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

              Originally posted by entlassen View Post
              UpandComing:
              And since Bond's lineage is Scottish and French by ethnicity but English by nationality, you just kind of undermined your own argument, as Bond is of Scottish and French blood, which means he's white by definition.
              I think it's hilarious that you care so much what Bond's blood as defined in the books is when you're watching one of his movies. Most people are happy to just acknowledge his Britishness as they enjoy the hijinks he gets into.

              The producers obviously don't feel the need to clarify Bond's Scottish and French blood in the movies (they haven't in most), because they know it has no bearing whatsoever on his exploits. But you know what? Maybe to make you happy, we should have him visit his family home in every installment going forward. And talk about his coat-of-arms.

              Seriously dude, your obsession is a bit laughable. Why do you care so much? Some kind of white nationalistic pride?

              *For the record, even though I think it is a cool idea, I could care less if Idris Elba is cast as Bond.
              "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

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              • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                Originally posted by entlassen View Post
                as Bond is of Scottish and French blood, which means he's white by definition.
                I swore I wouldn't get sucked back in but:

                Not all Scots, French or Swiss are white.

                And before you fall back on the nobility crap, not all Scots, French or Swiss people procreate with their people from their own background/social class/nationality/race etc, hard as that may be for you to stomach.

                I had more to write but am reminded of the definition of insanity.

                The overt racism and failure to understand what is important and not important to a movie character by some on this board is astounding. I really wouldn't have expected it here.

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                • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                  What do you mean by "mattered?" You seem to be insinuating that a character's background is totally illegitimate unless it's explicitly important in every single story he or she is involved in.

                  What does Shaft's race matter in today's world where there's no longer a popular Blaxploitation genre and where "black empowerment" is no longer necessary?

                  My perspective on this is pretty straightforward: Bond is white and Shaft is black and there's no reason to consider actors that don't fit the bill for either of them, regardless of how offensive some find that.

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                  • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                    Originally posted by entlassen View Post
                    And since Bond's lineage is Scottish and French by ethnicity but English by nationality, you just kind of undermined your own argument, as Bond is of Scottish and French blood, which means he's white by definition.
                    And just to be a nipicky a-hole, English is not a nationality and as his lineage is Scottish and French he'd be either Scottish or French, not English, unless some English blood got in their somehow, but the films don't address that so it can't be true can it. He'd still be British though, or French, or both if he wanted.

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                    • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                      Originally posted by entlassen View Post
                      My perspective on this is pretty straightforward: Bond is white and Shaft is black and there's no reason to consider actors that don't fit the bill for either of them, regardless of how offensive some find that.
                      Well, like it or not, the world is moving on without you when it comes to recasting characters who've typically been white. I feel sorry for you, nativeson and others who'll only be able to enjoy the old movies. Maybe you can wear blindfolds for the new ones.
                      "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

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                      • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                        Originally posted by entlassen View Post
                        What do you mean by "mattered?" You seem to be insinuating that a character's background is totally illegitimate unless it's explicitly important in every single story he or she is involved in.
                        If it's not relevant to the story or themes, then it DOESN'T MATTER.

                        I've already given the example of Jeffrey Wright as the CIA guy in Casino Royale. Could have been black, could have been white, could have been green. Didn't matter.

                        Carrie's first boss in Homeland was black. Again, totally incidental.

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                        • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                          Upandcoming: you brought up ethnicity vs. nationality, not me.

                          And why do I "care?" I don't, really. If they made a crazy casting decision for the next Bond actor I'd ignore the films and stick with the old ones. I already think they've gone off-the-rails with Craig's.

                          What annoys me however is the rampant hypocrisy and circular reasoning employed by people in this thread, which amounts to this:

                          "Bond is white but he can be played by anyone because it doesn't matter, but Shaft is black because he's black and defined by his indestructible blackness and he must always be black, otherwise, holocaust."

                          That's why I stuck with the thread. It's pretty clear that this is about pushing an agenda. The Bond producers can do what they want, but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

                          Bairn: we were talking about ethnicity, not nationality. Look at the post again.

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                          • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                            The post I quoted where you mentioned nationality?

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                            • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                              Originally posted by entlassen View Post
                              "Bond is white but he can be played by anyone because it doesn't matter, but Shaft is black because he's black and defined by his indestructible blackness and he must always be black, otherwise, holocaust."
                              HOW MANY TIMES does it need to be said?

                              Race is absolutely essential to Shaft. It isn't to present-day Bond.

                              There are plenty of roles for white people where it's essential. Look at Justified. Boyd Crowder is a former White Power prison gang member. It'd be pretty stupid for anyone other than a white guy to play him, right? And in the same show, Ellstin Limehouse is the unofficial head of an all-black community. So he needs to be played by a black guy. That's because, with both roles, race is absolutely at the heart of their stories.

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                              • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                                Originally posted by entlassen View Post
                                What annoys me however is the rampant hypocrisy and circular reasoning employed by people in this thread, which amounts to this:

                                "Bond is white but he can be played by anyone because it doesn't matter, but Shaft is black because he's black and defined by his indestructible blackness and he must always be black, otherwise, holocaust."
                                It is not hypocrisy. It is merely a recognition of the fact that with Bond, ethnicity has never played an important role in the plot of the movies (with the exception of SkyFall), and thus is a flexible attribute, much like his hair color (his British nationality, on the other hand, is not). With Shaft, ethnicity has always played an important part in the plot of the movies, and thus there is much less flexibility. Why don't you get that?

                                The positions on this forum supporting a black Bond are merely a recognition of the realities that have always existed up to this point. Anyone who is against it is just ignoring those realities in favor of emphasizing their preference.
                                Last edited by UpandComing; 01-05-2015, 09:40 PM.
                                "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

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