Oh Dog, here we go again...

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  • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

    Originally posted by Richmond Weems View Post
    I'll start with this 'cause there's actually no crap to avoid. The only thing to avoid is narrow-mindedness 'cause (in reference to your second post on this subject) there is no "cultural rift" involved with James Bond being black.
    I'd appreciate not having my words twisted to support an agenda. That's part of the bigger problem in sensitive topics. Narrow mindedness works both ways. To clarify, James Bond does not have a cultural rift. It's the agenda behind the decision makers, and that's only in the potential reasons behind the decision which is neither proved true or untrue... merely a possibility.

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    • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

      60WPH:

      A cursory look at the IMDB boards will tell you that a lot of people are fed up with the black Bond hysteria, so obviously race is essential... it's just not essential to some people.

      Someone in this thread said that a white Shaft could work. I take it you disagree.

      Race is absolutely essential to Shaft. It isn't to present-day Bond.
      Why would race be essential to present-day Shaft though, just for the sake of argument? You seem to be of the opinion that in Fleming's day Bond would need to be white, but not today. I could make the same argument for Shaft: that in the 70s Shaft would need to be black, but not today since things have changed.

      Same applies to Upandcoming.

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      • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

        Originally posted by entlassen View Post
        60WPH:

        A cursory look at the IMDB boards will tell you that a lot of people are fed up with the black Bond hysteria, so obviously race is essential... it's just not essential to some people.

        Someone in this thread said that a white Shaft could work. I take it you disagree.



        Why would race be essential to present-day Shaft though, just for the sake of argument? You seem to be of the opinion that in Fleming's day Bond would need to be white, but not today. I could make the same argument for Shaft: that in the 70s Shaft would need to be black, but not today since things have changed.

        Same applies to Upandcoming.
        As has been pointed out many times, Shaft was ALWAYS a riff on race. Changing Shaft's race would change its essential nature. It'd be kind of pointless. And things haven't ENTIRELY changed, by the way.

        Bond was never a riff on race. A black Bond doesn't change its essential nature. Nor does it make it pointless.

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        • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

          Originally posted by UpandComing View Post

          It is merely a recognition of the fact that with Bond, ethnicity has never played an important role in the plot of the movies (with the exception of SkyFall).
          I never point out flaws in logic, unless I do.

          I haven't watched SkyFall so I have no idea of the merits of that statement, but I found it curiously odd.

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          • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

            Originally posted by ChadStrohl View Post
            I never point out flaws in logic, unless I do.

            I haven't watched SkyFall so I have no idea of the merits of that statement, but I found the statement rather interesting. (That doesn't make me racist, does it? Hard to tell these days.)
            I haven't called you a racist. But if that's the strongest rebuttal you can make, you're a terrible debater
            "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

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            • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

              Originally posted by entlassen View Post
              60WPH:
              I could make the same argument for Shaft: that in the 70s Shaft would need to be black, but not today since things have changed.

              Same applies to Upandcoming.
              Yeah, things have changed sooo much. That's why the streets of Ferguson and New York looked like they did last year. Racism is gone!!
              "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

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              • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                Originally posted by 60WordsPerHour View Post
                As has been pointed out many times, Shaft was ALWAYS a riff on race. Changing Shaft's race would change its essential nature. It'd be kind of pointless. And things haven't ENTIRELY changed, by the way.

                Bond was never a riff on race. A black Bond doesn't change its essential nature. Nor does it make it pointless.
                You can do a riff on race with any race. Why not have John Shaft be from Koreatown and approach it from that angle?

                Unless you're really saying that Shaft is a riff on blacksploitation...but there's no blacksploitation anymore. It died decades ago along with the "culture" Shaft represented.

                So really, there's no reason to keep Shaft black for a modern reboot.

                Going back to Bond, it doesn't follow that just because the Bond concept doesn't revolve explicitly around racial issues, that Bond's background is unimportant and can be changed. He's still a specific, extremely well-established character, and if you change his race you change that character.

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                • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                  Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
                  I haven't called you a racist. But if that's the strongest rebuttal you can make, you're a terrible debater
                  I retracted that racist statement when I realized you had not called me that. I apologize.

                  But that wasn't that bad of a rebuttal.

                  Oh... and yes, I might be a terrible debater, but I was trying to show the hole in yours. I don't disagree with your position so much that I feel the need to argue against it. It really was that I found that statement to sort of destroy its own validity.

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                  • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                    Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
                    Yeah, things have changed sooo much. That's why the streets of Ferguson and New York looked like they did last year. Racism is gone!!
                    Now this is what has everyone so uncomfortable. James Bond is merely a trigger for the gun.

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                    • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                      Someone lock up this thread.

                      Where the hell are the mods around here?

                      Comment


                      • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                        Originally posted by ChadStrohl View Post
                        I retracted that racist statement when I realized you had not called me that. I apologize.

                        But that wasn't that bad of a rebuttal.

                        Oh... and yes, I might be a terrible debater, but I was trying to show the hole in yours. I don't disagree with your position so much that I feel the need to argue against it. It really was that I found that statement to sort of destroy its own validity.
                        I think the meaning of my statement was clear, despite its clunky execution...
                        "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

                        Comment


                        • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                          Originally posted by evan_g View Post
                          Someone lock up this thread.

                          Where the hell are the mods around here?
                          What are you talking about? There's no better way to start off a new year than with a good old-fashioned DDP Movie Character Race War
                          "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

                          Comment


                          • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                            Originally posted by evan_g View Post
                            Someone lock up this thread.

                            Where the hell are the mods around here?
                            Why?

                            Comment


                            • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                              Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
                              I think the meaning of my statement was clear, despite its clunky execution...
                              Dude... you just did it again.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                                Originally posted by entlassen View Post
                                You can do a riff on race with any race. Why not have John Shaft be from Koreatown and approach it from that angle?

                                Unless you're really saying that Shaft is a riff on blacksploitation...but there's no blacksploitation anymore. It died decades ago along with the "culture" Shaft represented.

                                So really, there's no reason to keep Shaft black for a modern reboot.
                                Why, exactly, have you got "culture" in quote marks? What is that supposed to highlight? Care to explain?

                                And do whatever you want with Shaft. Knock yourself out. I think you're just engaging in pissing-match sophistry over it. As I've said, its essence is very specific. Much more so than the family crest in Bond you're getting all quivery-bottom-lipped over.

                                Originally posted by entlassen View Post
                                Going back to Bond, it doesn't follow that just because the Bond concept doesn't revolve explicitly around racial issues, that Bond's background is unimportant and can be changed. He's still a specific, extremely well-established character, and if you change his race you change that character.
                                He's a well-established concept of a character that has been played around with in his various incarnations.

                                And unless he's got a frickin' Dorian Gray painting hanging somewhere, he's had his age constantly reset. Why isn't he 95?

                                Can you, once and for all, explain what a black James Bond would represent to you that a white James Bond does or doesn't. Yes, yes, the family crest bit would be gone. Is that the dealbreaker for you? Would that just tear down the whole edifice?

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