Oh Dog, here we go again...

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  • #46
    Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

    So since I started this I'll pitch in again.

    If Sony if putting forwards a black actor for the publicity when there are actors that meet the stereotype are they in fact being racist?

    If not, why not?

    If this is the case, if Elba knows this is he an Uncle Tom?

    If not, why not?

    Am I being overtly or covertly racist for even daring to suggest such "terrible things"?

    I'll clarify still further. I thought Tom cruise was the wrong actor to be Jack Reacher, after seeing the movie I still think so. Some characters just are what they are, more-so when thoroughly established like Bond.

    Changing them is not artistic, it's not challenging, it's frequently done for the basest reasons. I remember reading an article years ago during the Schumacher batman era when some piece of the Batman's costume was altered. How true it is or not but the writer maintained the changes were about producer credits over artistic merit.

    FIGHT ON!
    I heard the starting gun


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    • #47
      Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

      Some characters just are what they are, more-so when thoroughly established like Bond.
      That's the issue here. Bond's a specific character with a paternal lineage of Scottish nobility. His family has its own centuries-old coat of arms. His mother was from Switzerland. Ian Fleming derived the character from both himself and the people he knew in real life.

      All of that background would need to be destroyed in order to accommodate a black actor. Like someone else in here said, it would be stunt casting. It wouldn't be Ian Fleming's James Bond, because it would have nothing in common with the man he created.

      The black Bond crowd either ignores this or claims it's unimportant. And guessing from their general attitude, most of them don't like the series to begin with, which means they're driven primarily by the socio-political issue than finding an appropriate actor for the role.

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      • #48
        Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

        I'd love to see Elba's take on the character. But by that point, I think Elba would be a bit too old for the part -- knowing Sony would want to have him around for multiple movies and the first possible 00-Elba would be closer to five or six years away from today.

        But in all seriousness, why not bring him in as a part of the last Craig-led Bond film as a new character? You could get a little ballsy or whimsical and actually kill off Bond in the franchise, only to have M offer him the recently vacant title of 007 at the end of the film.

        Then Elba's first film as "not James Bond" would simply be called 007.

        I find the potential of Elba as Bond to be intriguing. But I also find the idea of an original role for him - in that movie universe - equally as intriguing. Let Idris play out his spy and see how successful it is, then once he hangs up the tuxedo we'll be 6 to 8 years removed from the Daniel Craig era and a reboot would be quite refreshing.

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        • #49
          Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

          Originally posted by entlassen View Post
          Annie
          That reminds me, the new Annie is great! Kudos to Aline Brosh McKenna for writing a smart, charming screenplay to showcase a super-talented cast.

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          • #50
            Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

            Originally posted by entlassen View Post
            Bond's a specific character with a paternal lineage of Scottish nobility. His family has its own centuries-old coat of arms. His mother was from Switzerland. Ian Fleming derived the character from both himself and the people he knew in real life.

            All of that background would need to be destroyed in order to accommodate a black actor.
            I suppose one argument could be - how many of the films actually reference this stuff?

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            • #51
              Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

              Originally posted by sherbetbizarre View Post
              I suppose one argument could be - how many of the films actually reference this stuff?
              You're right, not one.

              Connery is the only Scot to play Bond and in no way does he portray Scottish nobility. Scottish accent yes, nobility no. But then how many of the books did either? The character was developed in tandem with the films, Fleming, who originally hated Connery's casting has stated this. The Scottish aspect was added after Connery was cast (I think this was mentioned above).

              But at the end of the day, in every one of the roles mentioned by entlassen above race is completely irrelevant to the story. Sometimes race is important but in Bond it isn't, he just has to be a British Secret Agent and I'm willing to bet there are a lot of non-white's serving in the British Secret Service right now, some of whom will even be Scottish.

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              • #52
                Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                Originally posted by entlassen View Post

                Now, can someone cite a single example of a black character being re-imagined as white? Anyone?
                Google this and I'm sure you'll find lots of examples.

                Or just watch any movie based upon the bible and see Middle Eastern characters people played by white actors.

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                • #53
                  Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                  I suppose one argument could be - how many of the films actually reference this stuff?
                  The last one was all about his heritage, to the extent that the third act took place in his childhood home. Apart from that, a few other of the films and books referenced his past as well.

                  Sometimes race is important but in Bond it isn't, he just has to be a British Secret Agent and I'm willing to bet there are a lot of non-white's serving in the British Secret Service right now, some of whom will even be Scottish.
                  Does Shaft just have to be a private detective in NYC?

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                  • #54
                    Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                    [QUOTE=entlassen;915925]The last one was all about his heritage, to the extent that the third act took place in his childhood home. Apart from that, a few other of the films and books referenced his past as well.

                    QUOTE]

                    And why does that mean he has to be white? You do realize not all Scots are white yes?

                    Originally posted by entlassen View Post

                    Does Shaft just have to be a private detective in NYC?
                    I've actually never seen Shaft, but read what I said "sometimes race is important" but with Bond what changes if he looks white, black, or anything else. How does that change the actual character?

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                    • #55
                      Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                      Google this and I'm sure you'll find lots of examples.
                      I did and I found precisely one: apparently in real-life, a drug-addicted woman committed a hit-and-run and drove home with her victim still attached to her car. The actual woman was black but they made her white in the film, called Stuck, starring Mena Suvari.

                      So yeah, good example. Totally refutes my point, especially seeing as how they turned a real-life black criminal (not even a fictional character!) into a white one.

                      Or just watch any movie based upon the bible and see Middle Eastern characters people played by white actors.
                      The Bible primarily involves Egyptians, Hebrews, and Romans. The Romans were obviously European, and even when white actors play the Egyptians and Hebrews they don't redefine them as Europeans, but play them as they were intended, with their cultural identity in tact. Even with all that nonsense about Exodus (I didn't see it), the actor didn't play Ramesses as a European, but an Egyptian.

                      And why does that mean he has to be white?
                      Because the character doesn't make sense otherwise, unless you think there was some kind of African diaspora nobility in Scotland. lol.

                      I've actually never seen Shaft, but read what I said "sometimes race is important" but with Bond what changes if he looks white, black, or anything else. How does that change the actual character?
                      This is a typical SJW argument. Whenever there's a non-white character like Shaft, their race is intrinsic to who they are and must be respected and never changed, but whenever there's a white character, their race somehow doesn't matter at all, and that character can and should be played by anyone.

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                      • #56
                        Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                        Originally posted by entlassen View Post
                        I did and I found precisely one: apparently in real-life, a drug-addicted woman committed a hit-and-run and drove home with her victim still attached to her car. The actual woman was black but they made her white in the film, called Stuck, starring Mena Suvari.

                        So yeah, good example. Totally refutes my point, especially seeing as how they turned a real-life black criminal (not even a fictional character!) into a white one.



                        The Bible primarily involves Egyptians, Hebrews, and Romans. The Romans were obviously European, and even when white actors play the Egyptians and Hebrews they don't redefine them as Europeans, but play them as they were intended, with their cultural identity in tact. Even with all that nonsense about Exodus (I didn't see it), the actor didn't play Ramesses as a European, but an Egyptian.



                        Because the character doesn't make sense otherwise, unless you think there was some kind of African diaspora nobility in Scotland. lol.



                        This is a typical SJW argument. Whenever there's a non-white character like Shaft, their race is intrinsic to who they are and must be respected and never changed, but whenever there's a white character, their race somehow doesn't matter at all, and that character can and should be played by anyone.
                        https://www.google.com/#q=black+char...y+white+actors

                        There you go google link to Black Characters played by white actors. I assume you have heard of The Hunger Games yes?

                        I'm going to state again, there are many non-whites in Scotland. True, none of them were nobility but then Scotland hasn't had it's own nobility distinct from the rest of the UK on over 500 years. Do you think it's possible that in that time maybe some of them may have had relations with non-white people. Some of them may have even had kids with someone from Switzerland, another country that has non-white citizens. Wonder if we can think of a famous movie character with a Swiss mother?

                        Again though you are mixing up nationality and race. My daughter is half Scottish, as in one parent is 100% Scottish, not descended from Scots hundreds of years ago. But many people look at her and don't see the Scottish at all. Other's do and see only the Scottish.

                        I'm curious why you think white people can play a Middle Eastern character as they were intended 'with their cultural identity intact' but a black actor can't play a Scottish man 'with their cultural identity intact.'

                        One other thing on Bond, the character as written, really is more of what we would of as English gent than anything, sort of a David Niven type. Pretty far from Connery. Fleming hated the Connery casting originally didn't think he was a good fit, which he really wasn't for the character as written originally in the books.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                          There you go google link to Black Characters played by white actors. I assume you have heard of The Hunger Games yes?
                          I haven't seen any of the films or read the books but I've never heard anyone claim that Katniss was black in the book, so I'm going to assume that that's BS, because if it were true, then there would have been widespread outrage over the casting of Lawrence in the role.

                          I'm going to state again, there are many non-whites in Scotland.
                          Irrelevant.

                          True, none of them were nobility but then Scotland hasn't had it's own nobility distinct from the rest of the UK on over 500 years. Do you think it's possible that in that time maybe some of them may have had relations with non-white people.
                          Yes I'm sure Scottish nobles spent their free time sailing a thousand miles to Africa to have affairs with the locals. Totally plausible.

                          Some of them may have even had kids with someone from Switzerland, another country that has non-white citizens. Wonder if we can think of a famous movie character with a Swiss mother?
                          Most Swiss are French, German, and Italian-descended.

                          Again though you are mixing up nationality and race. My daughter is half Scottish, as in one parent is 100% Scottish, not descended from Scots hundreds of years ago. But many people look at her and don't see the Scottish at all. Other's do and see only the Scottish.
                          What does that have to do with anything?

                          I'm curious why you think white people can play a Middle Eastern character as they were intended 'with their cultural identity intact' but a black actor can't play a Scottish man 'with their cultural identity intact.'
                          Because white actors can pass for middle eastern, and again, they don't portray them as white.

                          Joel Edgerton as Ramesses:

                          http://static02.mediaite.com/themary...on-600x372.jpg

                          What Ramesses looked like in real life:

                          http://www.howardandrewjones.com/wp-.../11/Ramses.jpg

                          Is there an issue there? No. It's not like Edgerton was cast to play a Zulu warrior, which would be the equivalent of a black actor playing Bond. But hey, isn't it possible that whites can be descended from Zulus? After all, whites have been in Africa for centuries, right? But seriously, how likely or appropriate would that kind of casting be?

                          One other thing on Bond, the character as written, really is more of what we would of as English gent than anything, sort of a David Niven type. Pretty far from Connery. Fleming hated the Connery casting originally didn't think he was a good fit, which he really wasn't for the character as written originally in the books.
                          Connery nailed the role because the director instructed him well.

                          Craig's films suck because they're too obsessed with following trends and modeling Bond on other franchises like Bourne and Batman. They're too disconnected from the origins, and a black actor in the role would be the final break from the origins, to the point where calling him James Bond would be pointless.

                          After Craig they should get Chris Hemsworth into the role, provided he's done with all those dumb marvel movies.

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                          • #58
                            Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                            God why did I even read any of this thread.

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                            • #59
                              Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                              Originally posted by entlassen View Post
                              What Ramesses looked like in real life:

                              http://www.howardandrewjones.com/wp-.../11/Ramses.jpg
                              I call fake. Not sure what it is about it, but I swear that picture looks photoshopped...

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                              • #60
                                Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                                Originally posted by Eric Boellner View Post
                                I call fake. Not sure what it is about it, but I swear that picture looks photoshopped...
                                yeah pretty sure that's a Syrian actor trying to play Monty Burns!!!
                                I heard the starting gun


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