Oh Dog, here we go again...

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  • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

    I remember reading a Bond novel when I was way too young to appreciate it, but the thing that always stood out to me was 007's facial scar. It's a good thing the movies have been 100% faithful to Fleming's vision...
    "I was dreamin' when I wrote this, forgive me if it goes astray." - Prince

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    • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

      The actual plot of SHAFT could be done with any number of white actors (and has)...but it wouldn't be the SHAFT that was shown in 1971.
      And the basic plot to a Bond movie can be done with a black actor but it wouldn't be Ian Fleming's James Bond. Not only would it not be Ian Fleming's James Bond (of the books) but it wouldn't be the cinematic James Bond seen from the 1960s til now. Nor would it be Bond in general. See how that works?

      There's more to the movie than just a private dick who's a bad muthafvcker;
      And there's more to Bond than a spy who's an expert at everything.

      socially and culturally the movie cannot be done with a white guy in the lead.
      Why not? The "culture" found in Shaft is NYC culture, and that can apply to any race: white, black, Hispanic, anything. What other culture is found in it?

      Bond's culture, on the other hand, is rooted in centuries worth' of British customs, mannerisms, politics, identity, etc. Many of these are themselves rooted in a specific class.

      For James Bond, there is no cultural or social contextual weight to a white man being a spy for England;
      Aside from all that stuff I've already mentioned? His heritage which is explicitly explored in both the books and movies? His origins as a reflection of actual people that Ian Fleming knew in real life, none of whom were black? His overall pop culture image as a symbol of England? Come on.

      nothing inherent in Bond's character or social status that's integral to any Bond story.
      Right, because the English aren't known for being class-conscious.

      Have you ever seen one of the movies or read one of the books? In From Russia With Love, there's a dinner scene where Bond starts to suspect his very prim and proper English ally is in fact a Soviet agent during dinner. How? The guy orders red wine with fish; something no respectable Englishman would do.

      Bond is all about the snobbery; well some people consider it snobbery, anyway. It's bound up in the culture and traditions of England. I would say it's much more historically/culturally-inspired than what you find in Shaft movies.

      You could replace Daniel Craig with any number of minority actors and it wouldn't change the very nature of the story being told. If you replace Richard Roundtree, then you get A WALK AMONG THE TOMBSTONES. But you don't get SHAFT.
      Know what happens when you replace a white James Bond? You get John Shaft! Seriously, the first line on the character's Wikipedia page flat-out says that John Shaft was conceived as a black version of James Bond.

      John Shaft is a fictional character created by screenwriter Ernest Tidyman as a sort of African American version of Ian Fleming's James Bond.[1]

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shaft

      Not Bond himself, but a black answer to him. Meaning it's understood that Bond is white and Shaft is black.

      Checkmate.

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      • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

        bmcthomas: yup, fictional characters. So by this standard no one should have a problem with Bradley Cooper as a rebooted John Shaft, the super-cool private detective who plays by his own rules and even has his own super-cool theme song that everyone loves.

        And I only brought up Bond's background because people were insisting that he had no background, or that it wasn't important.

        Assuming that we are all screenwriters here, I seriously hope that if any of you ever create a character who goes on to become a global pop culture icon, that the writers/producers/actors of the future have more respect for your intentions than you have for Fleming's.

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        • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

          Originally posted by entlassen View Post
          bmcthomas: yup, fictional characters. So by this standard no one should have a problem with Bradley Cooper as a rebooted John Shaft, the super-cool private detective who plays by his own rules and even has his own super-cool theme song that everyone loves.

          And I only brought up Bond's background because people were insisting that he had no background, or that it wasn't important.

          Assuming that we are all screenwriters here, I seriously hope that if any of you ever create a character who goes on to become a global pop culture icon, that the writers/producers/actors of the future have more respect for your intentions than you have for Fleming's.
          Actually, no novelist has a guarantee that her characters won't be changed in the process of translation to film or television. Sometimes changes are made for the good of the film, sometimes to the film's detriment.

          Fleming's intention is perfectly preserved in the novels and short stories. Any new Bond film, whatever the casting, will bring new readers to Fleming's original fiction.

          Now, African ancestry in the British nobility, and in European nobility in general, is rare, but not non-existent.

          http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...yalfamily.html


          http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2404181/


          http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/mot...centuries.html


          Looking at it from a screenwriting POV, I would probably pitch Elba as Agent 007, but not Bond. Eton educated son of a Nigerian oil tycoon, immigrant in background, but thoroughly British in upbringing and loyalties.

          Now, if you insist that Bond be played by a native Briton of a certain social class, you're on much firmer ground than if you claim that he can played by anybody white.
          If you really like it you can have the rights
          It could make a million for you overnight

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          • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

            Originally posted by entlassen View Post

            John Shaft is a fictional character created by screenwriter Ernest Tidyman as a sort of African American version of Ian Fleming's James Bond.[1]
            Nice.

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            • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

              Forget it, Jake; it's Chinatown...

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              • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                To not interfere too much with the identity of the character I think the only pre-requisites are that he be A) British B) Well-Spoken C) Suave D) Badass. I think Elba can do all those.

                I get respecting the creative vision of Ian Fleming but we ran out of novels long ago. We're in the territory of expensive fan-fiction. And I'm kinda glad that's the case because Live and Let Die is filled to the brim with N-Bombs.

                Now if they went with my idea of the identity of James Bond being something that these agents are brainwashed into believing this thing wouldn't be an issue.

                Though to the people who wanted Asian or Female Bond's just make an original IP. When re-casting changes the actual character what's the point of keeping the name?

                Now can you all stop arguing about white Shaft and do something more productive? Like screaming into a pillow made out of bees?

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                • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                  Originally posted by entlassen View Post

                  Assuming that we are all screenwriters here, I seriously hope that if any of you ever create a character who goes on to become a global pop culture icon, that the writers/producers/actors of the future have more respect for your intentions than you have for Fleming's.
                  If you want your writerly intentions perfectly preserved, never show your work to anyone.

                  And certainly never sell it! Or allow it to become a global icon, subject to the whims of the public, who might not imagine the character exactly as the writer intended.

                  thank god we've got you here, to tell us all the precise way the real James Bond scratches his balls.

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                  • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                    Originally posted by bmcthomas View Post
                    thank god we've got you here, to tell us all the precise way the real James Bond scratches his balls.
                    He likes it a little to the right.

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                    • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                      Or maybe... someone can just write a NEW story

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                      • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                        As an African American who wants to break into this industry, it makes me sick that issues of race are still so highly present. Unless it's important to the story, i.e. a movie about slaves, then race should not matter. At All! And I guess the same people who have a problem with Idris Elba just being mentioned as a possible new James Bond, also have a problem with Michael B. Jordan being cast as Johnny Storm or the fact that there will be a black stormtrooper in the new Star Wars movie. Just Stop.

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                        • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                          Originally posted by ricther View Post
                          As an African American who wants to break into this industry, it makes me sick that issues of race are still so highly present. Unless it's important to the story, i.e. a movie about slaves, then race should not matter. At All! And I guess the same people who have a problem with Idris Elba just being mentioned as a possible new James Bond, also have a problem with Michael B. Jordan being cast as Johnny Storm or the fact that there will be a black stormtrooper in the new Star Wars movie. Just Stop.
                          I'm all for Elba as Bond, but Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm?
                          "I was dreamin' when I wrote this, forgive me if it goes astray." - Prince

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                          • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                            Originally posted by Furious Anjel View Post
                            I'm all for Elba as Bond, but Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm?
                            I know it would have seemed more logical to either cast Johnny Storm with a white actor or just cast Sue Storm with a black actress, but they can always be adopted siblings. No big deal.

                            Origin stories get changed a lot. Just look at Marvel.

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                            • Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                              I wouldn't bring Fantastic Four into this because that piece of s**t is going to bomb big time.

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                              • the last incarnation of bond, james bond

                                I had an idea like this about a paranoid schizophrenic with a radio headset in one tooth, getting messages to take care of business on the international espionage front -- AND ACTUALLY encountering and defeating SUPERVILLAINS, Schmerz (or is it Smersh?) agents, SuperNazis and RadSlams of various derivation, not to mention foiling real-world diabolical plots.

                                Someone beat me to it.

                                wish we could embed youtube clips on the comments board, like over at toezrope. ah well.

                                http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1k...james-bond_fun

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