Oh Dog, here we go again...

[billmarq]

Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

This thread has run its course and now is nothing but exchanging insults.

I probably should have ended this a long time ago.

By the way, if anyone actually reads the Bond novels, he will learn that the fictional Bond himself had racist notions, for instance the time when he was relieved that the girl he was admiring on the beach had a tan and was not black. I believe that was in Dr. No.

That is not necessarily relevant to the discussion, er - argument, but I thought i would toss that out in closing.

[entlassen]

Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

#1 - Ignore rational arguments

Your arguments are not based on reason, but rather on perspectives you perceive as socially-acceptable.

and only respond to the select details that you can think up with come backs.

Which details have I not responded to?

If you spend 20-odd pages of a comment section asking about a white Shaft and someone writes a response to it, just ignore it.

I haven't ignored anything. It's you who have continually ignored my points, and when you don't ignore them you simply repeat what you said previously, or scream "racist," and then claim that I didn't respond to you... kind of like what you're doing now.

If you don't comment, that argument against you doesn't exist.

How can an argument not exist? Any argument made exists; whether it's backed up or not is a different issue. Maybe that's what you meant.

#2 - Keep belittling the people who you are debating against

It's hard not to belittle some people.

instead of putting up a reasonable reply.

I've offered pages of reasonable replies. All you do is offer double standards and accusations of "racism" as if you were an MSNBC pundit.

Or better yet, just put "lol" instead of actually responding to anyone.

lol is a response. It's just a response you don't like.

#3 - Present your personal bigotry as fact.

I never did that. If so, where?

Don't like black people.

Nor did I ever state or even insinuate that.

Than state as a fact that their culture isn't real culture.

Nor did I ever state that.

#4 - Use completely unrelated comparisons to back up said theories.

What theories?

An entire race of people's lives and experiences are exactly the same as a music movement you didn't like.

Where did I ever suggest that?

#5 - Make yourself the victim.

Where did I make myself a victim?

Arguing that a black person shouldn't be James Bond is exactly like the struggles of Jews in the Holocaust or Gays any time in history.

Apparently it went over your heard that I did that to mock your perspective, not affirm it.

[UnequalProductions]

Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

This is a teachable moment for writers out there. Are you looking to create villains that will make your reader's blood boil? Carefully go back and watch how Entlassen works in his statements.

#1 - Ignore rational arguments and only respond to the select details that you can think up with come backs. If you spend 20-odd pages of a comment section asking about a white Shaft and someone writes a response to it, just ignore it. If you don't comment, that argument against you doesn't exist.

#2 - Keep belittling the people who you are debating against instead of putting up a reasonable reply. Or better yet, just put "lol" instead of actually responding to anyone.

#3 - Present your personal bigotry as fact. Don't like black people. Than state as a fact that their culture isn't real culture. A movie where black people get killed would never be made because you don't think so.

#4 - Use completely unrelated comparisons to back up said theories. An entire race of people's lives and experiences are exactly the same as a music movement you didn't like.

#5 - Make yourself the victim. Arguing that a black person shouldn't be James Bond is exactly like the struggles of Jews in the Holocaust or Gays any time in history.

If you follow these 5 simple rules, you'll create villains your audience truly hates, and it will help you sell your scripts for big money*


*Void if any of your main characters are not white males.

[entlassen]

Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

Your knowledge of Black Culture in any era is severely lacking however par for the course considering your Rush Limbaugh tone gushing with indignation at the erosion of what should be your birthright as a mighty white man. But even Rush admitted his outrage against a Black 007 sounds racist. Not you. You're still trying to justify your pretzel logic when anyone can see it's not about Bond.

You have no desire for true discussion because each time someone tries to reasonably address a point you've made, you throw up another straw man, "Explain the Dutch in Africa! Explain the price of hair gel in Minnesota!"

I once read somewhere that your particular type of racism (i.e. the belief that your racist opinions are intellectually sound and supported by facts) is actually a mental disorder. At the time, I laughed. But as I read your thinly-veiled racist posts I'm considering it may be true.

lol.

[sc111]

Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

No, it's not real culture. Just like the 80s hair metal scene was not real culture. Unless you think Rock of Ages should be performed at the Bolshoi....

Your knowledge of Black Culture in any era is severely lacking however par for the course considering your Rush Limbaugh tone gushing with indignation at the erosion of what should be your birthright as a mighty white man. But even Rush admitted his outrage against a Black 007 sounds racist. Not you. You're still trying to justify your pretzel logic when anyone can see it's not about Bond.

You have no desire for true discussion because each time someone tries to reasonably address a point you've made, you throw up another straw man, "Explain the Dutch in Africa! Explain the price of hair gel in Minnesota!"

I once read somewhere that your particular type of racism (i.e. the belief that your racist opinions are intellectually sound and supported by facts) is actually a mental disorder. At the time, I laughed. But as I read your thinly-veiled racist posts I'm considering it may be true.

[60WordsPerHour]

Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

60words:

The character was basically British wish fulfillment after they had wrecked their empire fighting WWII and found themselves stuck on their islands without any kind of say in the post-war world, which was divided between the US and USSR.

Ian Fleming took people he knew in real life, as well as elements of his own personality, and concocted a British spy who came from a specific background and was a member of a specific class and who embodied the image of a traditional Englishman. Now if you can't see why a black Bond doesn't fit that bill, then I can't help you.

And you think that TODAY'S audiences go in with the collective memory of Britain in a funk? Referencing Yalta, Lend-Lease debt, Partition, Suez, the Mau Mau, the sun setting on the Empire and so on?

It's a changed world, and a changed Britain. Bond was actually a signpost of the change. From fusty to a pop culture powerhouse.

Historical knowledge?

Not so much the knowledge as the very distinct slant you seem to put on it.

[entlassen]

Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

If you want to become a better writer, you're going to have to let go of the victim mentality.

K bro, I'll keep this in mind when the next slavery/holocaust/civil rights/LGBTBBQ movie comes out. We haven't had one in a couple months, after all.... because Hollywood has no time for professional victims!

[entlassen]

Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

Ah, so black culture in 70s New York should be in quotes because it's not a real culture like Scottish culture. Got it.

No, it's not real culture. Just like the 80s hair metal scene was not real culture. Unless you think Rock of Ages should be performed at the Bolshoi.

Yes. Like James Bond's ancestors who sprung magically from the Earth in Scotland. They didn't come from anywhere else. But a black man, no matter how long his family has lived in the United Kingdom still isn't a native.

The Dutch have been in Africa far longer than Africans have been in the UK yet the Dutch are not seen as native to the land, so there is no reason why Africans should be seen as native to the UK if one is being consistent. Consistency, it seems, is in short supply here.

But the bottom line is that none of us are allowed to argue with Entlassen because he understands completely how Hollywood works. See that last paragraph. That movie would never get made by anyone, and Entlassen knows for sure. Which studio do you head?

Of course it would never get made, that was my point.

60words:

What is the point of the character and how does it negate it?

The character was basically British wish fulfillment after they had wrecked their empire fighting WWII and found themselves stuck on their islands without any kind of say in the post-war world, which was divided between the US and USSR.

Ian Fleming took people he knew in real life, as well as elements of his own personality, and concocted a British spy who came from a specific background and was a member of a specific class and who embodied the image of a traditional Englishman. Now if you can't see why a black Bond doesn't fit that bill, then I can't help you.

Can you see ANY black actor playing ANY part doing the above?

Yes.

For the milllionth time, Shaft had race at the core of its being.

And for the millionth time, so does Bond. Just because the Bond plots don't revolve around race doesn't mean his race is irrelevant.

If you were arguing about Jason Bourne it would make more sense because Bourne's background, identity, etc. were a big question mark. That was the whole point/gimmick of his character. You can't make the same argument for Bond.

You really have a stockpile of this kind of stuff, don't you?

Historical knowledge? Yes, because I was a history major in college.

That blowback occurred wasn't surprising.

Blowback isn't surprising, but neither is wanting payback after you lose your wife and kids in an act of genocide.

[nativeson]

Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

If you want to become a better writer, you're going to have to let go of the victim mentality.

Amen. Django was a great film with a strong hero.

[odocoileus]

Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

Originally Posted by entlassen

It's like how can Hollywood can make a movie like Django Unchained where the sole purpose is to have a black character joyously and graphically slaughter whites by the dozens (including white women) whereas if someone made a movie about a white character killing backs, mainstream America would have a heart attack, and Sharpton and Holder would be calling for the filmmaker's head on a platter, and Obama would be holding press conferences.

If you want to become a better writer, you're going to have to let go of the victim mentality.

[60WordsPerHour]

Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

A black Bond would naturally have to represent African immigration into England, not the native (yes, white; whites are natives as well, believe it or not) English themselves. That pretty much negates the point of the character.

What is the point of the character and how does it negate it?

You wrote this way back:

Elba is not what I have in mind when I think of James Bond. I can't see him being tech-savvy, multilingual, well-travelled, sharply intellectual or any of that. I can't imagine him having a witty but tense conversation with the villain at a dinner table. I can't imagine him detecting a double agent due to his bad taste in wine. To be honest it would seem rather farcical to me.

Can you see ANY black actor playing ANY part doing the above?

Now maybe you can explain, once and for all, what a white Shaft would represent that a black one does or doesn't.

For the milllionth time, Shaft had race at the core of its being. There had already been many white Shafts, speaking purely in plot terms. If you assembled a focus group and got them to spontaneously describe Shaft's themes and characteristics, I'm pretty damn certain that black identity would be high up the list. If you did the same thing with Bond, his family coat of arms and French/Swiss mother wouldn't.

If it's about racial vengeance then would you welcome an action movie that takes place in 1804 Haiti, after the blacks there exterminated the entire white population and the plot revolved around a white man who goes around brutally killing blacks by the dozens as payback for his murdered family? Something tells me Hollywood would never accept that, even if all the blacks "deserved" it after the genocide they committed.

You really have a stockpile of this kind of stuff, don't you?

For instance, your list of white roles replaced by black actors.

The Haitian massacre was bloody and merciless, but your proposal doesn't have quite the same dynamic as the backdrop to Django Unchained. Slavery in Saint Domingue was particularly brutal, with punishments including burning alive, burying alive, amputations and other assorted horrors. It was often cheaper to work slaves to death and buy replacements than keep them alive. (Now, before you blow a gasket, I'm not condoning the Haitian massacre. Read that sentence again before continuing, please). That blowback occurred wasn't surprising. (Did you read the bit about me saying I'm not condoning it?). And no, your thought experiment movie wouldn't get made. But neither would an action movie about a German tracking down and killing British pilots who flew Dresden bombing missions. And before you blow another gasket, I'm not saying the two are direct parallels.

[nativeson]

Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

Sharpton can't be president. Obama can.

50 cent can't be Bond. Idris can. And people will pay $$ to see it.

Loud mouths will always exist but our society has come a long way.

Don't be hatin' on the rapper superspies, man.

[falcon18]

Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

Sharpton can't be president. Obama can.

50 cent can't be Bond. Idris can. And people will pay $$ to see it.

Loud mouths will always exist but our society has come a long way.

[nativeson]

Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

Wow, you're just stewing with a lot of racial resentment, aren't you?
You probably spend your days steaming over all the different forms of "black privilege". Because, you know, the list is extensive.

Seriously, take a chill pill and go watch "Remember the Titans", or something...

Yes! That! (Titans)

Go write something like that instead of a random reboot.


Loved the Titans.

[UpandComing]

Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

If it's about racial vengeance then would you welcome an action movie that takes place in 1804 Haiti, after the blacks there exterminated the entire white population and the plot revolved around a white man who goes around brutally killing blacks by the dozens as payback for his murdered family? Something tells me Hollywood would never accept that, even if all the blacks "deserved" it after the genocide they committed.

Wow, you're just stewing with a lot of racial resentment, aren't you?
You probably spend your days steaming over all the different forms of "black privilege". Because, you know, the list is extensive.

Seriously, take a chill pill and go watch "Remember the Titans", or something...