Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice

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  • Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice

    Has anyone seen it yet? The reviews haven't been kind.

    "I was dreamin' when I wrote this, forgive me if it goes astray." - Prince

  • #2
    Re: Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice

    I have yet to read a single good review, and I've read many. And those don't count the two movie critic YouTube channels I subscribe to. Those guys didn't like it either.

    The bigger you build your world, the more threads you need sewn up, otherwise the "finished" product looks a mess. That's been the moral.
    "I ask every producer I meet if they need TV specs they say yeah. They all want a 40 inch display that's 1080p and 120Hz. So, I quit my job at the West Hollywood Best Buy."
    - Screenwriting Friend

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    • #3
      Re: Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice

      Originally posted by roscoegino View Post
      I have yet to read a single good review, and I've read many. And those don't count the two movie critic YouTube channels I subscribe to. Those guys didn't like it either.

      The bigger you build your world, the more threads you need sewn up, otherwise the "finished" product looks a mess. That's been the moral.
      Not a single shred of believable character motivation from anyone. Plus, it's joyless. I didn't go in with high expectations, but man, what a mess.

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      • #4
        Re: Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice

        I've not seen it, but, judging by the laughable subtitle 'Dawn of Justice' alone, I'd expect it to suck its own saggy bag of shriveled balls.
        Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
        "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

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        • #5
          Re: Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice

          Just came from the cinema. I'm deeply disappointed.

          The plot is a total mess: A lot of characters, a lot of plot lines with a lot of potential, but nothing much comes together. It pretends to be epic, but it isn't. Many nightmare sequences contribute to its confusing structure. The events themselves are too predictable and the characters' motivations remain unclear. Heck, most of the revelations are not even believeable ("Martha!").

          What's even worse is that the movie doesn't live up to its title -- the conflict between both title characters is kept to a minimum. It's all talk, but no action. They aren't even in a room together for the most part. The story touches upon a grande theme, but it's never fully realized (power and responsibility on a personal, national and spiritual scale).

          SPOILER: In the end, it turns out that the villain is a total nutjob, which makes him a bad villain. All of that happened, just because he is a loony? There is no depth to it.

          Superman is one of the most misunderstood characters in all of storytelling, but that is the least of the problems this movie has ...

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          • #6
            Re: Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice

            As always, I have a completely different take.

            Let me preface this by offering a sense of my superhero-movie taste, on which you gauge the relevance of this assessment to yourself: I loathe, utterly loathe, all of the Marvel films. To me they are as corny and juvenile as the ’60s Batman TV show. As for DC, I do rather enjoy Man of Steel. And my favourite film in the genre, by far, is The Dark Knight Rises.

            - - - -

            Spoilers throughout:

            It’s a deeply flawed film, but on balance, I enjoyed my first viewing a great deal.

            The best elements by far comprise the Batman content. Astonishingly, Ben Affleck is excellent as Wayne/Batman; better in the role than anyone before him, and that includes Christian Bale. (This film finally gets the voice right.) Affleck's demeanor is note perfect: ever-simmering fury, restless intelligence.

            As should be the case, this film allows Batman to come very near to being a villain; plus, it nicely plays up the horror elements of the character. This is now the definitive cinematic Dark Knight.

            The movie benefits from superior Batmobiles and Batplanes to those in the Nolan films: gritter and more realistic. The fight sequence are thankfully clearly visible, so that one can clearly discern the choreography. (None of this Ridley Scott spasmodic-camera nonsense.)

            The visual of Wayne Manor in ruins is very fitting to the character, associating him with the “ruins theory” mode of 18th/19th-century Romanticism, which gives us Batman’s aesthetic roots.

            No Robin, thank god.

            This film's Superman is a natural extension of his Man of Steel self, which I quite enjoyed, so this portrayal more than satisfied me. (Christopher Reeve was good in the part, but those '80s films now come off as unbearably campy.)

            Some of the Washington scenes get a bit talky, but I enjoy the presentation of Superman (and, to some degree, Batman) as a personification of the good and bad sides of American interventionism. Clever little political dig there: "That's what democracies do: we talk" (spoken as a point of pride)... but then BOOM, the bomb goes off.

            The way in which Lois Lane is written in the Snyder films is hit and miss for me (too many testicular references), but I adore how Amy Adams plays her. The bathtub scene between the couple was very enjoyable and appealing.

            The highlight of the film -- the battle between Batman and Superman -- even though it is mostly spoiled by reading The Dark Knight Returns, is rather better than I expected. Having Batman as the unquestioned victor feels supremely dramatically satisfying. Also, the way in which battle ends -- “Martha,” the name common to both -- legitimately astonished me, and created, at least to my taste, an emotionally powerful moment.

            However, the two characters (Batman and Superman) ally themselves to one another far too quickly after that, so that when Batman rescues Martha Kent and introduces himself as “a friend of your son,” it's much too soon.

            Gal Gadot does much better in the Wonder Woman role than I expected. Thankfully the producers did not require her to turn herself into a steroid-pumped she-male: like Lynda Carter, she maintains a feminine appearance (as Diana Prince should). Her best scenes constitute her exchanges with Bruce Wayne, which recall the very fine chemistry that these two characters shared in the 2001 Justine League animated series. Overall, her costume works (darker than her TV attire, more consciously Greek, and blessedly not modernized.)

            Fighting-wise, though, I’d say that the film absurdly overpowered her.

            The Luthor depiction is terrible. A disaster, frankly. Eisenberg should have played Luthor as Zuckerberg. Instead, he delivers a pseudo-Joker performance.

            The revival of Zod as a mindless brute is a complete waste of space. What a come-down from worthwhile villains such as Bane and Ra’s-al-Ghul, to have the hero-trio end up facing... The Hulk. In other words, this part of the movie is so bad, it's Marvel-bad.

            The introduction of the other Justice League characters via security-cam footage is simply lame and pointless. They should have only shown WW’s photo and saved the rest for the next film.

            The movie could have benefited from a dialogue pass. (Then again, even Nolan's films had a few clunky lines, or at least Batman Begins did.)

            But all in all, for me, the good bits are decent enough that they outweigh the bad (wretched as the bad elements undeniably are), and I left the theater satisfied. And at least in my screening, that seemed to be the common sentiment. BIG applause at the end.

            Those are my first thoughts, off the top of my head.
            Last edited by karsten; 04-29-2016, 02:59 PM. Reason: Removing spoiler white-out

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            • #7
              Re: Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice

              It's part of a larger issue with DC vs Marvel.

              Since 9/11 we've lived in dark times. Our real life villains are vile and horrific in ways that do make the ones on screen a bit cartoonish in their simplicity. Whether it's ISIS, Boko Haram, the Mexican drug cartels or the mass shootings going on, cop shootings, or stuff on the local news with child predators, etc. You get it. There's a darkness in these souls that make the villains we see on screen seem quaint, because HOW we deal with these dark forces in real life is complicated. There is no real-life "action set piece" that will magically make these villains go away. Superman can't beat ISIS. Batman can't solve the violence in Mexico. The Black Panther can't make racist police un-racist.

              And this is now deeply ingrained in us post-9/11. There's a lot of evil and vile stuff in this world, but solving it isn't cut and dried. You can't kill your way out of evil like fiction tells us we could.

              Marvel, whether consciously or not, seems to "get" this. Their films are tongue-in-cheek, which fits with our times given the context. Seeing (mostly) men in silly costumes is absurd, and the fun of it is watching a more simple, innocent conflict on screen that we know is supposed to be fun. Sure the stakes are high *within* the world (life, death, the fate of their universe), but it's a world that we know to be more innocent, less gray, than ours.

              And whether the Marvel films are better or not, it's that tone that works for audiences today who go on a Fri or weekend to ESCAPE.

              The DC world seems to take itself too seriously, like it's trying for Drama with a capital D, to make some parallels with our own world, but in a way that we know is patently false and simplistic. Lex Luthor is not ISIS. He isn't a child sex trafficker. He's a PG-13 at best R villain, and not the NC-17 / snuff film level that we have in real life. His version of evil seems a bit quaint, a movie villain in a classic sense and not really that much more "evil" than a Marvel villain - but the difference is, Marvel films know that they're there to entertain us, that it's a stage of actors in costume, and not trying to pretend to be an allegory.

              DC is trying to make Art out of adults in tights, whereas Marvel just wants you to sit back, munch on popcorn and enjoy the show.
              Last edited by redturtle; 03-24-2016, 09:38 PM.

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              • #8
                Re: Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice

                I loved almost everything about the movie.

                It's easily the most spectacularly epic superhero movie I've ever seen, AND it has one of the most emotionally satisfying resolutions to a hero vs. hero fight I've ever seen depicted on either film OR in comic books.

                What more could you possibly want from a movie called "Batman v Superman"?

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                • #9
                  Re: Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice

                  Originally posted by Zodraz View Post
                  it has one of the most emotionally satisfying resolutions to a hero vs. hero fight I've ever seen depicted on either film OR in comic books.
                  Agreed. I was authentically surprised at how enjoyable that resolution was.

                  Originally posted by redturtle View Post
                  Marvel, whether consciously or not, seems to "get" this. Their films are tongue-in-cheek, which fits with our times given the context. Seeing (mostly) men in silly costumes is absurd, and the fun of it is watching a more simple, innocent conflict on screen that we know is supposed to be fun.
                  That's what I was getting at with my preamble. It's a taste thing. To me, that Marvel absurdity is the opposite of fun. It's aggravatingly idiotic.

                  Originally posted by redturtle View Post
                  it's that tone that works for audiences today who go on a Fri or weekend to ESCAPE.
                  DC is absolutely escapism as well. (This isn't Bergman, after all.) But I much prefer DC's darker escapism. It may well be that there are more people who prefer the absurdity; but fortunately -- so far at least -- there seem to be enough who share my preference that DC's darker films do get made.

                  Originally posted by redturtle View Post
                  The DC world seems to take itself too seriously, like it's trying for Drama with a capital D, to make some parallels with our own world, but in a way that we know is patently false and simplistic. [...] it's a stage of actors in costume, and not trying to pretend to be an allegory.

                  DC is trying to make Art out of adults in tights, whereas Marvel just wants you to sit back, munch on popcorn and enjoy the show.
                  See, I infinitely prefer the attempt at art and drama than no such attempt. I can stand the attempt, even if Snyder is a bit more hit-and-miss about achieving it than Nolan is, more than no attempt at all, which I cannot stand. Sure it's simplistic, but I don't see a "true" vs. "false" metric as applicable. An allegory simply is; the only question is whether one finds it appealing. I do, but certainly grant that others might not.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice

                    Originally posted by redturtle View Post
                    DC is trying to make Art out of adults in tights, whereas Marvel just wants you to sit back, munch on popcorn and enjoy the show.
                    I think there is room for both approaches. It's just a matter of whether it's in the right hands. I loved the Nolan films, and The Dark Knight is one of my favorite movies of all time. The Snyder films are trying to copy their tone, but it's obviously not working. They need to find a new director and writers, stat.
                    "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

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                    • #11
                      Re: Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice

                      Ben Affleck reacts to negative reviews for Batman v Superman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwXfv25xJUw

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                      • #12
                        Re: Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice

                        Possible mild spoiler
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                        Question,

                        When does Batman get the Kryptonite? Or did he just have some all along?

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                        • #13
                          Re: Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice

                          Addressing spoiler question:

                          Originally posted by mgwriter View Post
                          When does Batman get the Kryptonite? Or did he just have some all along?
                          That's kind of the plot of half of the film.

                          You sure you want to know
                          this?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice

                            Originally posted by karsten View Post
                            Addressing spoiler question:


                            That's kind of the plot of half of the film.

                            You sure you want to know
                            this?
                            I saw the movie but I thought I missed something. That's why I'm asking.

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                            One minute Batman was chasing that truck in the Batmobile to steal the Kryptonite, then Supes stops him and the truck gets away. I must have missed something that happened when Batman gets Kryptonite unless he already had some.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice

                              Ah, gotcha.

                              Later in the film, you may remember that a scene shows Luthor's complex having been broken into -- damage outside, people scattered. Luthor enters the room in which he kept the kryptonite, to find the kryptonite missing, having clearly been wrenched from its container.

                              The implication is that Batman stormed the edifice, in dramatic fashion, and made off
                              with it.

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