Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again

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  • Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again

    Ocean's 8 stars blame dominance of male critics for film's mixed reviews

    "Mindy Kaling and Cate Blanchett echo Brie Larson in calling for greater diversity among reviewers"

    "Stars of Ocean’s 8, the heist movie featuring all-female leads, have accused male critics of failing to appreciate their film.

    Speaking to Yahoo Movies, Mindy Kaling called the dominance of white male reviewers “unfair”. “If I had to base my career on what white men wanted I would be very unsuccessful, so there is obviously an audience out there who want to watch things like [Ocean’s 8], what I work on, what Sarah [Paulson] works on.”

    Co-star Cate Blanchett concurred, saying the media had failed to make the mindshift the movie industry had when it came to gender equality. “The conversation has to change,” she said, “and the media has a huge responsibility.”

    "Kaling referred to Meryl Streep’s attack on reviews aggregate site Rotten Tomatoes, which she felt prioritised the views of men. Promoting the film Suffragette in 2015, Streep said she felt the ratio adversely affected ticket sales for female-skewed films."
    A little reality:

    First off -- the film is not a failure. It opened around $5 to $10 Million more than predicted by it's studio.

    Second. "Rotten Tomatoes" critics rate this film as "Fresh" "68%"

    Third. While it's true more men than women critics, for this film, are listed on Rotten Tomatoes (66% men, 34% women), 36% of the women critics give it a thumbs down, while 35% of the men critics give it a thumbs down. Pretty close to equal, but the women critics liked it less.

    What is the criticism? It boils down to there wasn't enough at stake. Things came too easy and there was not enough conflict. (Also the idea was tired, and they were looking for a twist to make it more unique.) Many critics (men and women) were not happy that so many talented actresses were given so little to work with. In other words, story flaws.

    Several said they needed a kick-ass bad guy to go against. One person said they essentially had to "outsmart" security guards.

    But with all that -- the movie is still doing good at the box office.

    So why all the whining and bitching?
    Last edited by StoryWriter; 06-16-2018, 11:44 AM. Reason: Corrected Math
    "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

  • #2
    Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again.

    Originally posted by StoryWriter View Post
    So why all the whining and bitching?
    It's just what those effing Earthlings always do, man.
    “Organizations for writers palliate the writer‘s loneliness, but I doubt if they improve his writing.“ — Ernest Hemingway

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    • #3
      Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again.

      Rotten Tomatoes scores have an outsized influence on opening weekend box office, so even small biases in reviews -- real or perceived -- can adversely affect a movie's opening.

      68% is not a great RT score. is it fairly earned? i haven't seen Oceans 8 so i won't personally opine. but i know that implicit bias is definitely a real thing so i won't say that the criticism of that score isn't valid.

      i also know from experience that a lot of mediocre male-driven movies get better reviews than they probably deserve. so the existence of a double standard for female-driven films wouldn't surprise me in the least.

      case in point, David Edelstein's misogynist review of Wonder Woman last year. depending on how many more David Edelsteins come to female-centered movies with the same kind of personal axe to grind, I probably wouldn't want them reviewing Oceans 8 if I were the producer either.

      https://www.pedestrian.tv/entertainm...ple-cant-read/

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      • #4
        Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again.

        Blaming people for having a different opinion is always a good tactic. It's like a chef blaming the customers for not liking his food.

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        • #5
          Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again

          Originally posted by StoryWriter View Post
          A little reality:
          How deftly you dismiss the women that you've quoted as being unrealistic.

          Originally posted by StoryWriter View Post
          So why all the whining and bitching?
          You chose to use the word 'bitching'? Seriously? Is the word 'complaining', or 'criticism', or 'concern' not suitable? Pointing out the fact of a 2 males to 1 female ratio on an influential movie review website is not "whining and bitching". Have you not considered that you may be part of the problem?
          Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
          "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

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          • #6
            Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again.

            Originally posted by Bananos View Post
            Blaming people for having a different opinion is always a good tactic. It's like a chef blaming the customers for not liking his food.
            What absolute twaddle. That's a fallacious analogy. Since when is sexism and gender inequality merely an opinion?
            Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
            "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

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            • #7
              Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again.

              (...)

              Edit: I will not get into political arguments online
              I will not get into political arguments online
              I will not get into political arguments online

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              • #8
                Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again

                Originally posted by Crayon View Post
                You chose to use the word 'bitching'? Seriously? Is the word 'complaining', or 'criticism', or 'concern' not suitable? Pointing out the fact of a 2 males to 1 female ratio on an influential movie review website is not "whining and bitching". Have you not considered that you may be part of the problem?
                Oh good grief. I thought the original Oceans 11 sucked and didn't watch any of the others. There's no way in hell I would want to watch what amounts to a gender-changing reboot of a tired (and tiresome) franchise. If these women want to be remembered for something, act in something worth remembering. Meanwhile there was some (probably) valid criticism. Did you check into that, or did you just knee-jerk into PC Correct Mode?

                And, yeah, these women "bitched" about nothing. MEN and women "bitch" all the time. It's part of the English language, it's a verb that means "to complain in a whining or grumbling manner; to gripe." Don't like it? Tough. It's a word I use all the time. I'm fed up with the brain-dead "PC Police," who don't even know what words really mean, trying to tell me what words I should and shouldn't use. Life's too short to walk on eggshells.
                STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

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                • #9
                  Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again.

                  Originally posted by JoeBanks View Post
                  case in point, David Edelstein's misogynist review of Wonder Woman last year. depending on how many more David Edelsteins come to female-centered movies with the same kind of personal axe to grind, I probably wouldn't want them reviewing Oceans 8 if I were the producer either.
                  I haven't seen (or plan to see) Wonder Woman, but correct me if I'm wrong, isn't this a movie about a woman who mostly runs around in not much more than a bikini? Wouldn't the movie, itself, be misogynist?
                  STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again.

                    Originally posted by Centos View Post
                    I haven't seen (or plan to see) Wonder Woman, but correct me if I'm wrong, isn't this a movie about a woman who mostly runs around in not much more than a bikini?

                    She does run around in a skimpy outfit and she looks freaking hot doing it, but she also totally kicks ass and she is powerful and smart and wise and funny and compassionate and she totally rocks

                    And btw, her outfit is a warrior amazon outfit. There are certainly plenty of male stars in movies running around half naked with pecs and biceps galore fighting all manner of threat and enemies...

                    I think she's an empowering role model for young girls, actually. And not for nothing, but chicks who play Beatrix-Kill-Bill or Sarah Connor or Wonder Woman etc have to put in the work to look/act the part, which usually involves months of grueling physical training.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again

                      Originally posted by Crayon View Post
                      How deftly you dismiss the women that you've quoted as being unrealistic.
                      I didn't use the word "unrealistic" to describe them. If I did use a word to describe them it would have probably been "delusional".

                      They're whining and (yes) bitching about how they're being put down and mistreated, in a film that's considered successful. One was even running down the director. How stupid is that? He directs a film, that many critics agree didn't have much of a story, that's been done three times before. He exceeds the studio's expectations and he... gets run down by a couple of the actresses in the film because.... who the hell knows? I mean, WTF?! This wasn't supposed to be a tent-pole movie, intended to open at $250 Million.

                      So, yeah -- whining and bitching -- essentially saying: "You stupid misogynist SOBs, you cast me in a movie that was (shudder) successful -- how DARE you!"

                      It's beyond stupid.
                      "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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                      • #12
                        Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again.

                        Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post
                        <Snip>

                        And btw, her outfit is a warrior amazon outfit. There are certainly plenty of male stars in movies running around half naked with pecs and biceps galore fighting all manner of threat and enemies...
                        An Amazon warrior outfit, you say? Well ... I didn't know this was a "historical" movie. (I'm sorry, I'm having trouble taking this seriously. Wonder Woman was (is?) based on a comic book. That's as "deep" as it goes.)

                        Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post
                        I think she's an empowering role model for young girls, actually. And not for nothing, but chicks who play Beatrix-Kill-Bill or Sarah Connor or Wonder Woman etc have to put in the work to look/act the part, which usually involves months of grueling physical training.
                        Oh, give me a freaking break. Wonder Woman is a fantasy, comic book character doing things no normal human being can do. She's just like male comic book characters. When I was a kid (for a short while) I read Thor and Spiderman. Was I "empowered" to swing from building to building, using my "spidy webs" or twirl a freaking hammer fast enough to fly? I think girls are smart enough to separate fantasy from reality. If not, they'll be stuck in idiot video games 24/7 like too many of the boys are these days. Some of them never grow up into men.

                        I think I've about exhausted my tolerance for comic book movies (actually several years ago). I don't see how this vapid action fluff empowers anybody to do anything -- men or women.
                        STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again

                          Originally posted by Crayon View Post
                          Pointing out the fact of a 2 males to 1 female ratio on an influential movie review website is not "whining and bitching". Have you not considered that you may be part of the problem?
                          No -- what I consider the problem is your inability to read and comprehend what I wrote.

                          Roughly two-thirds of ALL critics gave this movie a thumbs up.

                          By a slim margin, the women who reviewed the film were MORE critical of it than the men who reviewed it (on Rotten Tomatoes).

                          MEANING: If there had been MORE women reviewers and less men (and the percentages stayed the same), the movie would have had a LOWER rating, not a higher one.

                          But what I thought was interesting is that both the women and men, who were critical of the movie, saw the same flaws.

                          So it's not women vs men thing and it's stupid to portray that way. I guess some people are just in perpetual knee-jerk mode.

                          AND... as I've tried to make clear several times -- this movie is considered successful. Yes SUCCESSFUL!!! To borrow from "My Cousin Vinny": "A SUCCESSFUL MOVIE -- WHAT A FREAKIN' NIGHTMARE!!!"

                          This also opened BIGGER than any of the other Ocean's movies.

                          As far as I know nobody called for a boycott of this movie -- there wasn't any bad press. I don't think even the conservative talk shows said anything derogatory about it. Since it beat studio projections, I think the studio is happy, so, once again, WTF is their problem?

                          It's like betting on one horse to win and when it wins, you whine and bitch because after-the-fact you decided you wanted your horse to win by ten lengths, not seven.

                          By the way -- "Ocean's Twelve" got a 54% "Rotten" rating. Maybe the women critics ganged up on it, to sabotage it -- you think? (Must be the case -- I can't think of any other explanation -- can you?)

                          Personally, I considered watching the movie because Sandra Bullock is one of my favorite actresses. (I'll probably rent it.) But I watched the trailer and it was pretty flat. Usually when a trailer bores you, that doesn't bode well for the film.

                          And that jibes pretty well with what many of the critics said (even those who gave it a thumbs up). They liked the idea. They liked the actresses, but they thought the story was weak and the talent was wasted.

                          Both women and men reviewers said that. So I REALLY don't think there's a vast misogynist conspiracy at work here.

                          Oh -- did I mention the movie IS considered a success?
                          Last edited by StoryWriter; 06-17-2018, 10:49 PM.
                          "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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                          • #14
                            Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again

                            Can female critics appreciate films with male leads?

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                            • #15
                              Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again

                              This thread is about Oceans 8, not Wonder Woman. If you want to talk about Wonder Woman, go to that thread.

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