"OVER THERE" -- war in Iraq, NON-political or not?

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  • "OVER THERE" -- war in Iraq, NON-political or not?

    Anyone watching "OVER THERE" (FX, Wed. nites) ???

    I read somewhere the producers are claiming it's "non-political" on the war in Iraq? But it's one intense, ethically-challenging tv series, so far.

    Who thinks it's actually being "non-political" about our involvement in Iraq?

    Who thinks it's propagandizing (and on which side of the war debate?)

    Is it possible to have a tv series about an on-going war in Iraq ... and yet weave it so that both pro-war and anti-war audiences feel it's arguing THEIR side of the war debate?

    '... over there
    Someone's gotta die
    Overrrr therrrrrre ...'

    It's an intense, troubling story so far ...
    sigpic
    "As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world -
    that is the myth of the atomic age - as in being able to remake ourselves."
    -Mahatma Gandhi.

  • #2
    Re: "OVER THERE" -- war in Iraq, NON-political or not?

    I think that by "non-political" what they're trying to do is just show the war from the soldiers' points of view.

    For the most part, no one there cares that we're there for one reason or another. No one cares if Bush is a liar or democrats hate the military.

    All they care about is that they don't die today. And that none of their buddies die either.

    And I think the show is trying to keep that focus.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: "OVER THERE" -- war in Iraq, NON-political or not?

      For the record, Democrats don't hate the military -- although I know you're not quite knee-jerk conservative enough to seriously suggest that.

      (The latest approval polls show that plenty of Republicans must think the war was a mistake and is being mishandled, too -- but acknowledging that doesn't make you anti-military, regardless of your political affiliation. Most people I know who feel the way the majority seems to about the war today understand that the mess has been made and we have to stay in it now, and they just wish for the best for our soldiers.)

      I haven't seen last night's episode yet, but so far it's seemed pretty non-political to me. As long as they keep the focus on the soldiers and the troubles and dilemmas they face in this war, and as long as they base it in their best knowledge of what's really going on over there, it pretty much can't be political.

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      • #4
        Re: "OVER THERE" -- war in Iraq, NON-political or not?

        Originally posted by dclary
        I think that by "non-political" what they're trying to do is just show the war from the soldiers' points of view.

        For the most part, no one there cares that we're there for one reason or another. No one cares if Bush is a liar or democrats hate the military.

        All they care about is that they don't die today. And that none of their buddies die either.

        And I think the show is trying to keep that focus.
        ...while the producers attempt to cash in

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        • #5
          Re: "OVER THERE" -- war in Iraq, NON-political or not?

          I thought that at first, too, Pen -- that it was just an attempt to cash in on the war.

          Almost didn't watch it. But I gave it a shot, and I have to say it's so focused on the soldiers and their trials and tribulations that it really doesn't feel cynical at all.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: "OVER THERE" -- war in Iraq, NON-political or not?

            Originally posted by dclary
            I think that by "non-political" what they're trying to do is just show the war from the soldiers' points of view.

            For the most part, no one there cares that we're there for one reason or another. No one cares if Bush is a liar or democrats hate the military.

            All they care about is that they don't die today. And that none of their buddies die either.

            And I think the show is trying to keep that focus.
            Okay, I'm quoting dclary just as a jumping off point, but addressing everyone ...

            I just wonder WHETHER IT'S POSSIBLE to be "non-political" ?

            Lemme play devil's advocate then: What if instead of USA soldiers in Iraq ... the story were about a group of WW2 German soldiers invading Russia?

            Fighting the Russian guerrillas, just trying to keep their buddies Hans and Wolfgang and "crazy Adolf" from being killed by those molotov-throwing, Panzer attacking Russian attackers?

            Shooting civilians yes ... but "that's war. Who knows who's innocent and who's a terrorist?" etc

            That too would be about "the soldiers' point of view" ...

            But wouldn't the mere fact that it's a show depicting THEIR point of view suggest that somehow "sides" have been taken?

            Would that tv show be seen as "non-political" ... or accused of being pro-Nazi?

            Back to "OVER THERE" / Iraq ... who saw the scene where the hard-ass US interrogator forces the captured Iraqi to stand in a "stress-position" (then tells the US soldiers to shoot him if he moves) until he passes out (oh wait, passing out was a cynical trick) ... and later the interrogator tells the Solder-with-a-conscience "The worst I can do is tell him to take that position; he can always refuse"

            I realize that entire episode had layers of meaning ... (to those who think it had layers of meaning) ... but is that somehow suggesting to the audience that any Iraqi can actually 'refuse' an order while surrounded by US soldiers who last week gunned down civilians?

            (Oh wait ... those 'civilians' turned out to be terrorists! Only ... the US soldiers didn't know that when they shot them, right?)

            Hmmmm. Is that level of cynicism perhaps a "political" statement in and of itself?

            Just wondering ...

            sigpic
            "As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world -
            that is the myth of the atomic age - as in being able to remake ourselves."
            -Mahatma Gandhi.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: "OVER THERE" -- war in Iraq, NON-political or not?

              You never saw Das Boot, Tabula? It's possible to tell a story about germans in wwii without it being political.

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              • #8
                Re: "OVER THERE" -- war in Iraq, NON-political or not?

                War is the physical manifestation of political will.


                It's very difficult, if not impossible, to tell a story about soldiers in war without making a comment on the politics behind it.
                Fortune favors the bold - Virgil

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: "OVER THERE" -- war in Iraq, NON-political or not?

                  But wouldn't the mere fact that it's a show depicting THEIR point of view suggest that somehow "sides" have been taken?
                  How? What "side" isn't sympathetic to the soldiers on the ground?

                  If this show focused a sympathetic eye on the White House or the Pentagon or the generals at the top of the war's food chain, then it would be political. But so far, it's just been about ground troops trying to do the job they've been handed and stay alive.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: "OVER THERE" -- war in Iraq, NON-political or not?

                    Watched the first two episodes. So far, so good. I really enjoyed the second one.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: "OVER THERE" -- war in Iraq, NON-political or not?

                      Again, I'm not disagreeing necessarily with any views here, I'm just trying to explore whether the "non-political" claim is possible to pull off ...

                      Originally posted by refriedwhiskey
                      How? What "side" isn't sympathetic to the soldiers on the ground?

                      The side the invading soldiers are shooting at?

                      If this show focused a sympathetic eye on the White House or the Pentagon or the generals at the top of the war's food chain, then it would be political. But so far, it's just been about ground troops trying to do the job they've been handed and stay alive.
                      Isn't the fact that the soldiers are ACCEPTING 'the job they've been handed' itself a political act?

                      It was somebody's 'job' to commit genocide in Nazi Germany during WW2.

                      Were there "good" Germans working in the deathcamps, just doing their jobs, following orders, etc?

                      Ah, I dunno. I did see "Das Boot" and sympathized with the crew, yes. That's why it's a tricky issue to me.

                      Can a tv show or movie that shows us the "human" side of monsters in fact be on the side of monsters? Can it be creating future monsters?
                      sigpic
                      "As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world -
                      that is the myth of the atomic age - as in being able to remake ourselves."
                      -Mahatma Gandhi.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: "OVER THERE" -- war in Iraq, NON-political or not?

                        The side the invading soldiers are shooting at?
                        That's a nice, glib response, tabula, but I don't think anyone expects a U.S. show to side with the guys who are blowing up our soldiers -- again, regardless of how one feels about the war.

                        By "sides," I was referring to what this thread seems to be mostly about -- conservatives vs. liberals here in the U.S., where the show was created and where it airs. I don't believe either of those sides can claim a corner on the market when it comes to sympathizing with the characters portrayed in this show: soldiers on the ground and their families. That's why I think as long as the focus remains on them, the show can be basically apolitical.

                        And the show hasn't shied away from depicting the human cost to Iraqis. We've seen civilians -- even children -- killed by U.S. soldiers, and we've seen Iraqi insurgents interrogated by U.S. soldiers. The show certainly doesn't depict our troops as the bad guys (although some higher-ups have been depicted as pretty stupid), but neither does it avoid the moral ambiguities of war.

                        Isn't the fact that the soldiers are ACCEPTING 'the job they've been handed' itself a political act?
                        No, that's a depiction of reality. The professional soldier goes where he's sent and does what he's told. That's his job and his mentality, and it's a necessity for an effective military. And that's exactly the mentality of the soldiers depicted on this show. And the show doesn't present them as bloodless automatons; in fact, they're frequently seen to question orders and criticize their superiors.

                        I have to ask, because it hasn't been entirely clear from your posts: Have you watched "Over There"?

                        It was somebody's 'job' to commit genocide in Nazi Germany during WW2.
                        Wow. Do you really want to compare U.S. soldiers in Iraq to Nazis? And their actions to genocide?

                        Do you know how quickly the insurgency could be ended if our military didn't care how many Iraqis they killed? Do you know how many of our soldiers have died while following rules of engagement designed to minimize Iraqi civilian casualties?

                        And you want to play the Nazi/genocide card? That's an automatic losing hand, because it destroys any authority your argument might have had.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: "OVER THERE" -- war in Iraq, NON-political or not?

                          Didn't make it through the first episode.
                          R.K. Bentley
                          My Blog, My Design Studio
                          "Little hand says it's time to rock an' roll." - Hot Fuzz.

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                          • #14
                            Re: "OVER THERE" -- war in Iraq, NON-political or not?

                            Originally posted by refriedwhiskey
                            That's a nice, glib response, tabula, but I don't think anyone expects a U.S. show to side with the guys who are blowing up our soldiers -- again, regardless of how one feels about the war.

                            Oh, let's not characterize each others' comments as being 'glib' etc ...

                            A comment was made and I replied. No need for animosity or personality characterizations here ... over simple comments.

                            And after michael moore's "Farenheit 9/11" ... yes, I could expect someone to create a fairly ANTI-"USA in Iraq" movie or series (while perhaps not expecting a very happy reception) Certainly, an anti- Viet Nam war movie (showing troops as drugged-out murderers, and psychos coming home) isn't unbelievable.


                            By "sides," I was referring to what this thread seems to be mostly about -- conservatives vs. liberals here in the U.S., where the show was created and where it airs. I don't believe either of those sides can claim a corner on the market when it comes to sympathizing with the characters portrayed in this show: soldiers on the ground and their families. That's why I think as long as the focus remains on them, the show can be basically apolitical.

                            Okay, point taken.

                            And the show hasn't shied away from depicting the human cost to Iraqis. We've seen civilians -- even children -- killed by U.S. soldiers, and we've seen Iraqi insurgents interrogated by U.S. soldiers. The show certainly doesn't depict our troops as the bad guys (although some higher-ups have been depicted as pretty stupid), but neither does it avoid the moral ambiguities of war.


                            No, that's a depiction of reality. The professional soldier goes where he's sent and does what he's told. That's his job and his mentality, and it's a necessity for an effective military. And that's exactly the mentality of the soldiers depicted on this show. And the show doesn't present them as bloodless automatons; in fact, they're frequently seen to question orders and criticize their superiors.

                            I have to ask, because it hasn't been entirely clear from your posts: Have you watched "Over There"?

                            I've seen all three episodes. I spoke of my take on it, in my first comments.


                            Wow. Do you really want to compare U.S. soldiers in Iraq to Nazis? And their actions to genocide?

                            No, I do not ... and so, no, I did not.

                            Do you know how quickly the insurgency could be ended if our military didn't care how many Iraqis they killed?

                            Well, I suppose we could A-Bomb every Iraqi dead, and the "Insurgency" would still be fought by the surviving one billion Muslims outraged by our evil actions ... so actually we may not be limited so much by our USA morality as we are by the reality of politics: if we become too bloodthirsty "winning" in Iraq, then we "lose" the world-wide war that results, etc.

                            Do you know how many of our soldiers have died while following rules of engagement designed to minimize Iraqi civilian casualties?

                            Just to answer your question:

                            Less than 2000?

                            How many civilians died in our bombing of Iraqi cities from the air ... tactics designed specifically to spare USA troops from ground and street-to-street combat?

                            I don't know: some says TENS of thousands.

                            That's not the topic of the debate here, is it?

                            And you want to play the Nazi/genocide card?

                            Why do you say I'm 'playing the Nazi/genocide card' ???

                            Someone here ASKED me if I'd seen "Das Boot" ...

                            Someone commented about how the TV show is non-political if it focuses on the soldier-buddies "doing their job" and keeping their buddies alive (and not on the political leaders) ...

                            I explored how far anyone should take that concept: what if your soldier-buddies are doing terrible things, and 'doing their job' is commiting terrible acts?

                            Is presenting that situation in a "human" way ... showing that monsters are "human" etc ... in itself presenting a political position? Is it a way of soft-selling an invasion of another country?

                            "We felt real bad about killing those innocent people ..." is stopping short of demanding that troops exit the country so no more innocent people are killed by US bullets.

                            I suggest that may be a political position, presented with subtleness.

                            One character in OVER THERE wants to return to fighting in Iraq, to help his buddies. He's shown as being courageous and selfless in that goal.

                            Is that being "non-political" ?

                            If one of the nurses told him: "why do you want to go back and help kill more people in Iraq? Why don't you write your friends and tell them: you are in a place where either you will die or you will kill others. Come home." --

                            THAT would be attacked as "political" wouldn't it?

                            So I was wondering (when I started the thread, and still wonder now) ... maybe there's more "politics" going on there than at first glance.

                            That's an automatic losing hand, because it destroys any authority your argument might have had.
                            You seem concerned whether I have a 'losing hand,' ... whether my argument has 'any authority' ???

                            I didn't 'play' any 'Nazi/genocide card' ...

                            And I'm not arguing.

                            If I can disturb someone by ASKING A QUESTION though ... that's a good question to have asked!
                            sigpic
                            "As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world -
                            that is the myth of the atomic age - as in being able to remake ourselves."
                            -Mahatma Gandhi.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: "OVER THERE" -- war in Iraq, NON-political or not?

                              Oh, let's not characterize each others' comments as being 'glib' etc ...
                              I call 'em like I see 'em. No hostility involved.

                              Wow. Do you really want to compare U.S. soldiers in Iraq to Nazis? And their actions to genocide?

                              No, I do not ... and so, no, I did not.
                              So why, then, did you invoke the Nazis and genocide in this thread about a show centering on U.S. soldiers in Iraq? What was your purpose?

                              Well, I suppose we could A-Bomb every Iraqi dead
                              First Nazis, now A-bombs. You have a tendency toward hyperbole.

                              It wouldn't take nuclear weapons to quell the insurgency in Iraq. But it would take more than our military is willing to do, because it would mean an unacceptable level of civilian casualties. And that's not just because they're afraid of Muslim backlash. I'm sorry if you think our military isn't motivated by anything nobler than that; I believe it is. And I believe it's part of a tradition and ethic our military has long had, of taking pains to minimize civilian casualties -- even when it may mean losing more U.S. soldiers' lives.

                              Someone here ASKED me if I'd seen "Das Boot" ...

                              Someone commented about how the TV show is non-political if it focuses on the soldier-buddies "doing their job" and keeping their buddies alive (and not on the political leaders) ...

                              I explored how far anyone should take that concept: what if your soldier-buddies are doing terrible things, and 'doing their job' is commiting terrible acts?
                              Yes, you went way out into hypothetical territory in a thread about a TV show about the war in Iraq. And in my opinion, you lost the plot there.

                              One character in OVER THERE wants to return to fighting in Iraq, to help his buddies. He's shown as being courageous and selfless in that goal.

                              Is that being "non-political" ?
                              Just what political message do you see in this wounded soldier's desire to return to his unit?

                              If one of the nurses told him: "why do you want to go back and help kill more people in Iraq? Why don't you write your friends and tell them: you are in a place where either you will die or you will kill others. Come home." --

                              THAT would be attacked as "political" wouldn't it?
                              Absolutely, it would be political. And very heavy-handed at that.

                              But the nurse DIDN'T say anything like that, so what's your point? You're way out in hypothetical territory again.

                              If I can disturb someone by ASKING A QUESTION though ... that's a good question to have asked!
                              Well, if that's your goal, I hope you do manage to disturb someone with it. But it ain't me.

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