Black List Glocks

[wcmartell]

Re: Black List Glocks

Isn't it possible that an exec could know that it was an error and still think it was one of the best scripts of the year?

Sure - except my experience is otherwise. Usually I am dealing with notes like Ham's Custer note - that would have taken 2 seconds for the exec or reader to discover was *not* a mistake before they opened their mouths (or typed up the note). And I frequently have had facts *changed* into mistakes. Just like online, when people are wrong they tend to fight harder for their position. One a cop thing, I had FBI Crime Stats for whatever year it was coming out of an FBI Agent's mouth - and even though I brought the actual printed stats to the second story meeting, they were changed because they "just didn't sound right". Nothing pisses me off more than spending the time to get things right and having someone tell you it's wrong - and it ends up wrong on screen.

Yes, this stuff is like finding a typo in a pro's script - those things never show up on screen (unless you have someone "sit on the coach") - but if you make the decision to type a specific instead of a generic so that it sounds like you know what you are talking about, probably a good idea if you do a couple of seconds of research so that you actually know what you are talking about, right?

- Bill

[Hamboogul]

Re: Black List Glocks

The one thing that's great is that now everyone on Done Deal knows that George Custer was a general during the Civil War.

That is enough for me.

[spacefarer]

Re: Black List Glocks

I was party to a discussion recently where people were tearing apart a sci-fi spec for being so inaccurate on the science - stuff that was way over my head. And this was a sci-fi script!.

None of the scripts dealing, or ever dealt, with science does the subject justice. They all fvck it up here and there so the story makes sense. And that goes for Arthur Clark adaptations too.

And if no one gives a damn about science then why would give for guns?

I simply don't. And I still tweak "science" in my scripts otherwise the story doesn't click.

So I find the comparison somewhat unsuccessful.

Anyway, I have debated on the topic way beyond my average. So I let this go here. You may carry on, guys.

[SuperScribe]

Re: Black List Glocks

Were these industry people who were tearing the science fiction script apart?

Because, ultimately, industry people are the only ones who count. (Laymen on the internet can rip scripts to shreds till the sacred cows come home, and no one gives a shit.)

That said, I've never forgotten Taotropics' diatribe against writers who don't do adequate research.

And neither will any of you now.

Bwahahahahaha...

Eh.

[sbbn]

Re: Black List Glocks

Were these industry people who were tearing the science fiction script apart?

Because, ultimately, industry people are the only ones who count. (Laymen on the internet can rip scripts to shreds till the sacred cows come home, and no one gives a shit.)

That said, I've never forgotten Taotropics' diatribe against writers who don't do adequate research.

And neither will any of you now.

Bwahahahahaha...

Eh.

Agree that at the end of the day the people that matter the most are the ones buying the script.

To be honest the conversation was an industry and want-to-be-in-the-industry mix and I don't recall who was saying what. I'll add that I throught the spec (which has been bought by a major studio - can't remember which off the top of my head) was very well written and entertaining. But I'll admit I'm very familiar with what is acceptable and what is not acceptable among sci-fi fans.

I had never heard Taotropics comment about research before this thread. I think his advice is great and very well stated.

[JeffLowell]

Re: Black List Glocks

Sure - except my experience is otherwise. Usually I am dealing with notes like Ham's Custer note - that would have taken 2 seconds for the exec or reader to discover was *not* a mistake before they opened their mouths (or typed up the note). And I frequently have had facts *changed* into mistakes. Just like online, when people are wrong they tend to fight harder for their position. One a cop thing, I had FBI Crime Stats for whatever year it was coming out of an FBI Agent's mouth - and even though I brought the actual printed stats to the second story meeting, they were changed because they "just didn't sound right". Nothing pisses me off more than spending the time to get things right and having someone tell you it's wrong - and it ends up wrong on screen.

I have to side with the execs. They weren't ignoring your research and saying you were wrong. They were very clear - it sounded wrong.

Screenplays aren't documentaries. If something is technically right but it bumps the audience, it's wrong. I don't think you can write for the 1% of the audience who knows that Custer was briefly a general.

To me, it would be like telling George Lucas that ships can't make noise in space. He says it doesn't matter, for the experience you need the sounds. You insist he's wrong, he does it anyway, and then you complain that he's ruined Star Wars.

[gravitas]

Re: Black List Glocks

I have to side with the execs. They weren't ignoring your research and saying you were wrong. They were very clear - it sounded wrong.

Screenplays aren't documentaries. If something is technically right but it bumps the audience, it's wrong. I don't think you can write for the 1% of the audience who knows that Custer was briefly a general.

To me, it would be like telling George Lucas that ships can't make noise in space. He says it doesn't matter, for the experience you need the sounds. You insist he's wrong, he does it anyway, and then you complain that he's ruined Star Wars.

But Jeff, George Lucas knew the rules. Then he made a conscious choice to break them for the sake of storytelling. This is different than someone not knowing, and throwing something into a script without fact-checking. It may be essential to have sound in space (for the movie), but is it essential to name a gun a Glock if it isn't applicable? Having a compelling, original story shouldn't exclude you from seeking excellence with every element of your screenplay, should it? Incidentally, I mean all my questions with the highest amount of respect and value your opinion.

[Hamboogul]

Re: Black List Glocks

I have to side with the execs. They weren't ignoring your research and saying you were wrong. They were very clear - it sounded wrong.

Screenplays aren't documentaries. If something is technically right but it bumps the audience, it's wrong. I don't think you can write for the 1% of the audience who knows that Custer was briefly a general.

To me, it would be like telling George Lucas that ships can't make noise in space. He says it doesn't matter, for the experience you need the sounds. You insist he's wrong, he does it anyway, and then you complain that he's ruined Star Wars.

I agree with you, Jeff. It was just my personal pride that made me irked by the "correction" on a throwaway line of a script.

Also, the notes were mostly insightful and well-organized. I'm just dwelling on the mole on Cindy Crawford's face.

[JeffLowell]

Re: Black List Glocks

Yes, the Glock reference is born out of ignorance. But the notes on Custer or FBI stats are saying something else - even if it's right, it sounds wrong.

I'm not saying don't research. I'm suggesting that the truth isn't a defense if something isn't right for the script.

[gravitas]

Re: Black List Glocks

I'm reminded of what Sorkin said recently. I'm sure it's been mentioned in the Social Network thread:

"I don’t want my fidelity to be to the truth; I want it to be to storytelling. What is the big deal about accuracy purely for accuracy’s sake, and can we not have the true be the enemy of the good?"

[BattleDolphinZero]

Re: Black List Glocks

I'm more reckless than Jeff. To me, research only matters if it makes the story better. I don't care about accuracy at all. Sometimes details can flavor a scene but most times lies and fabrications can. So I go with that.

A friend of ours was talking about writing "based on a true story" films. He said the codas at the end of a well known movie were fake. All of them. You know why? Cuz the real life codas would have been depressing and ruined the uplifting feel good feeling.

"Tommy overcame his problems and married Cindy. They now have two kids" whatever, it was all lies...and I liked it.

You name the gun a Glock because you think it sounds cool. Or maybe because you think it's a name people will recognize. Who cares?

[BattleDolphinZero]

Re: Black List Glocks

Of course, if you're writing a scene with two gun nuts talking, then do the research so that it sounds cool. But if you want one of the gun nuts to reference a gun that doesn't exist, or attribute traits to a gun that aren't real, do it...as long as it makes the scene work.

[wcmartell]

Re: Black List Glocks

They were very clear - it sounded wrong.

What Gravitas said.

The exec was ignorant. What sounded right to him would sould like BS to most people - and because this was dialogue in a script it served a story purpose... changing it to what sounded right to him caused a ripple effect that effed up later scenes. Had the exec done a check - called a half dozen random people and asked them if the facts "sounded wrong", and everyone else thought they sounded wrong, then I would have agreed with him. But I did not think the facts sounded wrong at all - they sounded like the FBI crime stats that I read in the newspaper - like millions of other people. Those stats were on the network news, too. You know, we had a President once who didn't know grocery stores used scanners - should we change the cash registers in the script to old PowerPennies?

If you make a consious decision, knowing the facts, to alter them for drama - and I do this all of the time - that's okay. You know what you are doing - you are not making a mistake, you are making a decision. But if you don't care - you don't care. You are not making a decision.

When you are dealing with guns, you are dealing with a huge % of people who will know when you are making crap up. You may not own a gun, but your neighbor probably does. Go to the newsstand and count the number of screenwriting magazines, then count the number of gun magazines. Hey, comparte the number of *movie* magazines to gun magazines. We are the minority, here - everybody else knows this stuff. I would hope that the person making decisions knows this stuff (or spends the couple of minutes Googling). I would actually like them to know at least what I know.

Since we're talking Glocks, and I am a non-gun owner who isn not even going to grab my Shooters Bible from the shelf for this illustration...

You are an Air Force pilot, your plane is involved in a dogfight with a bad guy's plane - both planes are hit, both pilots eject. You are both floating to the ground in your parachutes... but the bag guy floats toward you and pulls his Glock 18c pistol. All US Air Force pilots carry a sidearm - a Beretta M9. Now, the good news is that both the bad guy's weapon and your weapon are 9mm. The military is thinking about going back to 45s right now, but hasn't happened yet (hey, I read that in the LA Times!). Your gun vs. his gun. Should you be confident or scared to death that you are about to engage in a para-shoot out? That's *character*. That's *story*. These details matter...

Or they don't matter and you leave the details out. That works, too.

But if you give the protag an M9 and the antag a Glock 18c you need to know what that means.

This is all about character and story.

- Bill

[one seven spectrum]

Re: Black List Glocks

Yeah, I'd have to agree with Bill.

In THE SHIELD - Claudette carries an old six shooter, meanwhile Dutch carries a shiny 9MM semi-auto. The reason? Characters.

Claudette is much older, about to retire, very set in her "old school" ways; whereas Dutch is part of a new wave of detectives, well educated with a modern view and always happy to try new tactics.

The show's maker's knowing their weapons was spot on. Each character carried a different weapon - or the same to show likeness in some uni's, each one a defining part of their personality.

[NikeeGoddess]

Re: Black List Glocks

Of course, if you're writing a scene with two gun nuts talking

or if you're writing THE AMERICAN