This is really depressing (but not unexpected)....

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  • Re: This is really depressing (but not unexpected)....

    Originally posted by sc111 View Post
    I totally understand being pissed about your script being reviewed online. Totally. It's wrong.

    Thing is -- the person Fox is suing never reviewed scripts online, never even had a searchable website. And she never traded scripts.
    I'm trying to wrap my mind around how it is completely wrong to post reviews of screenplays but it is a lesser wrong or not a wrong to post entire scripts online (at least to the extent that Fox is unjustified).

    I'm not taking a position on either point - I'm just trying to understand that logic.

    Originally posted by boredatwork View Post
    As for the general argument that without screenplays posted online how do newbie writers learn to write: This is gonna be harsh but you do it the way it was done before the internet. You get an internship or job in Hollywood or go to film school. Sorry.
    I agree with most of what you said in your post except for the absolutism of this. What do you do if you can't read scripts online (which we're not anywhere near that point yet - you just don't have as great of access but they're still out there)? You get them elsewhere. There are tons of screenplays that are published and completely legal.

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    • Re: This is really depressing (but not unexpected)....

      (re: advances on novels)

      Originally posted by haroldhecuba View Post
      It's probably even less now; around $2k.
      HH
      That's really depressing. 2K for something that can easily take a year or more to write. There are lit magazines that pay more than that for a freaking short story!

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      • Re: This is really depressing (but not unexpected)....

        What's more depressing is that scriptshack's site is also kaput. they had the cheapest prices.
        "I ask every producer I meet if they need TV specs they say yeah. They all want a 40 inch display that's 1080p and 120Hz. So, I quit my job at the West Hollywood Best Buy."
        - Screenwriting Friend

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        • Re: This is really depressing (but not unexpected)....

          I think the "for educational purposes" argument could still be very valid for script sharing. You can go back to the Poetics to learn the fundamentals of drama, you can go back to Shakespeare for examples of execution of the principles of drama. The principles of drama have not changed. However, I think it could be argued that the packaging of those principles for public consumption has changed significantly in regards to filmmaking and Hollywood. Story still sells. But which story sells?

          Hollywood drives and is driven by which story sells. There are tracking boards, there are expos where there are seminars about what is selling. Bids for scripts are based on what is selling, what is selling creates bids. If you're a tyro scribe, aside from reading Variety and checking out DD, aside from spending mega dollars at the film school near you, and or trying to get the rare agency/studio mailroom or assistant jobs, it could be argued that there is substantial educational value in reading the scripts that are currently selling. The Black List for example. Story sells, but which story sells or was favorited? Which high concept was favorited? How was that story executed on paper? If you are able to read a script(s) from the Black List, that kind of reading has educational purpose and value with regard to not only learning screenwriting, but keeping up with the art of screenwriting.

          I'm not sure how far the for educational purposes angle could be worked and argued, but it's my two cents.

          This is not only about the industry protecting/controlling content, but also has IHBL mentioned, referencing Ari Emmanuel, the studios are monetizing their properties. Given the Kindle and Nook etc screenplays are much easier to distribute, no printing costs, just PDF and sell on Amazon.
          #writinginaStarbucks #re-thinkingmyexistence #notanotherweaklogline #thinkingwhatwouldWilldo

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          • Re: This is really depressing (but not unexpected)....

            Originally posted by Ire View Post
            I think the "for educational purposes" argument could still be very valid for script sharing.


            Hollywood drives and is driven by which story sells.

            You're wasting your time. It's not driven by which story sells, it's driven by which movie gets B.O.

            Don't think in terms of scripts, think in terms of movies.

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            • Re: This is really depressing (but not unexpected)....

              Mea culpa "sells" as both b.o. and what's bought. One drives the other.

              To specify: concept, is the concept well executed, is it a movie, marketable, who would it attract talent-wise... Still starts with a story.

              And thanks for letting me know I'm wasting my time.
              Last edited by Ire; 03-22-2011, 03:49 PM.
              #writinginaStarbucks #re-thinkingmyexistence #notanotherweaklogline #thinkingwhatwouldWilldo

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              • Re: This is really depressing (but not unexpected)....

                It's an amateur obsession.

                How much time do you think pros put into hunting down recently bought scripts so that they can analyse why that script sold?

                Writers in the real world don't do that. It's a futile sidetrack.

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                • Re: This is really depressing (but not unexpected)....

                  If you track this thread, I was defending the "for educational purposes" use of script sharing which I think could be a legally valid argument.

                  It might be an obsession of amateurs. I don't know what pros do in tracking sales or other scripts. As for myself, I have checked DD sales on a monthly basis to see what goes on.
                  #writinginaStarbucks #re-thinkingmyexistence #notanotherweaklogline #thinkingwhatwouldWilldo

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                  • Re: This is really depressing (but not unexpected)....

                    Originally posted by roscoegino View Post
                    What's more depressing is that scriptshack's site is also kaput. they had the cheapest prices.
                    No way!! What happened to them?

                    Originally posted by nojustice View Post
                    It's an amateur obsession.

                    How much time do you think pros put into hunting down recently bought scripts so that they can analyse why that script sold?

                    Writers in the real world don't do that. It's a futile sidetrack.
                    Well said.

                    Originally posted by Ire View Post
                    If you track this thread, I was defending the "for educational purposes" use of script sharing which I think could be a legally valid argument.
                    It's a loser argument. Completely loser of an argument. It's one of those misnomers that has perpetuated all of the internet and people have developed this belief that if the slap "for education use only" disclaimer on something then they are protected. Educational use in only one element of fair use. And saying "I'm reading so I can't learn to write" isn't education use in the copyright sense - if it were then when the hell would anything not be education use ("I'm watching Chinese bootlegs of movies taped on a handicam inside theaters so that I can learn about movie making")?

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                    • Re: This is really depressing (but not unexpected)....

                      If you're an IP attorney, SBBN, then I'd defer to you. Trying to be diplomatic, but I get the feeling I'm better off attacking foilks. You've got issues with script sharing, fine. Mine is not a loser argument. It might not be Supreme Court ready but it's a valid point. But again if you're an IP attorney, I defer.
                      Last edited by Ire; 03-22-2011, 11:08 PM.
                      #writinginaStarbucks #re-thinkingmyexistence #notanotherweaklogline #thinkingwhatwouldWilldo

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                      • Re: This is really depressing (but not unexpected)....

                        I've got nothing to do with any of this, I've never downloaded or uploaded a script of any kind, but surely you'd need to be able to prove the educational validity of the practice.

                        You'd need testimony from a screenwriting lecturer or someone who is employed in a higher educational setting to confirm the value of this approach. I don't think you'd be able to get that. They only use the classics for teaching, and only a handful of them. In fact, there would be a lot of testimony from lecturers who would say there's no educational benefit to be had at all from reading or studying unproduced scripts.

                        Or you would have to have testimony from someone who is now a successful working writer, after having taken this educational approach. Is there one of those?

                        While along side that you would have to deal with hundreds of testimonies from professional writers who say that none of them learned to write by this means, and wouldn't in any way recommend it.

                        I don't think you have to be an IP attorney to speculate about the logistics.

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                        • Re: This is really depressing (but not unexpected)....

                          Originally posted by nojustice View Post
                          I've got nothing to do with any of this, I've never downloaded or uploaded a script of any kind, but surely you'd need to be able to prove the educational validity of the practice.

                          You'd need testimony from a screenwriting lecturer or someone who is employed in a higher educational setting to confirm the value of this approach. I don't think you'd be able to get that. They only use the classics for teaching, and only a handful of them. In fact, there would be a lot of testimony from lecturers who would say there's no educational benefit to be had at all from reading or studying unproduced scripts.

                          Or you would have to have testimony from someone who is now a successful working writer, after having taken this educational approach. Is there one of those?

                          While along side that you would have to deal with hundreds of testimonies from professional writers who say that none of them learned to write by this means, and wouldn't in any way recommend it.

                          I don't think you have to be an IP attorney to speculate about the logistics.

                          I'd admit yeah, you're right, my argument is not the strongest, and I don't know how they'll handle that part of the proceedings. For the defense, imo, it's hammering home the all-too-human foibles, emotion, the desire of wanting to succeed. Establish the obsessions of the amateurs. And I'd say frame it in a David vs. Goliath context. Again this is all conjecture.

                          No offense to you, but I do think if it were an IP attorney who knew the DMCA inside out, telling me my argument was a loser argument, I'd move on in a second.
                          #writinginaStarbucks #re-thinkingmyexistence #notanotherweaklogline #thinkingwhatwouldWilldo

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                          • Re: This is really depressing (but not unexpected)....

                            It is indeed all conjecture.

                            I would be reluctant to bring David and Goliath into it. David saved the Israelites from Goliath who headed an army of marauding Philistines, and regardless of physiological features, a clever and articulate lawyer could very easily suggest that PJ is in fact the one heading the marauding Philistines, while Fox is making a costly stance to protect the Californian economy and the ongoing security of its population.

                            Is PJ Californian?

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                            • Re: This is really depressing (but not unexpected)....

                              I am in New York, my lead attorney is in California. My co-counsel is in New York.
                              http://www.pjmcilvaine.com/

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                              • Re: This is really depressing (but not unexpected)....

                                Originally posted by nojustice View Post
                                It is indeed all conjecture.

                                I would be reluctant to bring David and Goliath into it. David saved the Israelites from Goliath who headed an army of marauding Philistines, and regardless of physiological features, a clever and articulate lawyer could very easily suggest that PJ is in fact the one heading the marauding Philistines, while Fox is making a costly stance to protect the Californian economy and the ongoing security of its population.

                                Is PJ Californian?
                                Point taken.

                                #writinginaStarbucks #re-thinkingmyexistence #notanotherweaklogline #thinkingwhatwouldWilldo

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