James Cameron - God Among Screenwriters or Hack?

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  • #61
    Re: James Cameron - God Among Screenwriters or Hack?

    Originally posted by spinningdoc View Post
    Yeah, I get the whole parable bit. They're just the kind of parables an adolescent would think up, a bit like the alleged profundity of The Matrix - 'what if everyone else is just, like, a figment of my imagination dude and I'm just like a brain in a jar somewhere.... cool....'. Obviously there's a place for this kind of film, but I'm disturbed that it apparently counts as deep thought.

    The whole connecting with audiences bit is interesting though, assuming it did. I mean it did good business, but that just means effective, and massive marketing. Did many grown ups actually think it was a touching thought-provoking story which enlightened their approach to the world, as Cameron seem to intend? Maybe it's just my world weary European background kicking in, but... really? Did they?
    Ah ... European. Now I understand.

    Look -- we all approach film with certain biases that are an amalgamation of our personal experiences, tastes, gender, what-have-you and - yes - country of origin.

    One of my biases is how female characters are portrayed. Which love story would I want my daughters to be influenced by?

    The love story in Titanic or the love stories in Notting Hill or Bridget Jones?

    Titanic - hands down. I could write a dissertation on why I'd prefer this one. But I'm fully aware it's due to my predisposed biases.

    As for the American POV... we are a weird bunch. We are in general ridiculously optimistic. Insanely so. Where Europeans can see (and rightly so) all the signs showing the human race is going to hell in a super-sonic handbasket, the American says, "Yeah, but -- if we roll up our sleeves and work hard .... happy ending!"

    This is who we are. It's ingrained in everything we do. And - I suspect - our films are globally popular because deep down inside even world weary Europeans want a happy ending. But they'd never admit it out loud as often as we Americans will.

    Where you see tons of horsepoop, we Americans are looking around thinking, "Where's that lovely pony? It's got to be around here somewhere!"
    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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    • #62
      Re: James Cameron - God Among Screenwriters or Hack?

      Originally posted by spinningdoc View Post
      The whole connecting with audiences bit is interesting though, assuming it did. I mean it did good business, but that just means effective, and massive marketing. Did many grown ups actually think it was a touching thought-provoking story which enlightened their approach to the world, as Cameron seem to intend? Maybe it's just my world weary European background kicking in, but... really? Did they?
      Some films make you want to sit in cafes and engage in scintillating conversation with artists and intellectuals. Other films tap into something much more primal, like the longing for adventure and discovery, or the dream of flying. To me AVATAR did that beautifully.

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      • #63
        Re: James Cameron - God Among Screenwriters or Hack?

        Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post
        Some films make you want to sit in cafes and engage in scintillating conversation with artists and intellectuals. Other films tap into something much more primal, like the longing for adventure and discovery, or the dream of flying. To me AVATAR did that beautifully.
        Some do both.

        Enters....

        Pharaoh.
        The question is : Do you work in the business?

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        • #64
          Re: James Cameron - God Among Screenwriters or Hack?

          Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post
          Some films make you want to sit in cafes and engage in scintillating conversation with artists and intellectuals. Other films tap into something much more primal, like the longing for adventure and discovery, or the dream of flying. To me AVATAR did that beautifully.
          Primal -- that's it. Cameron does achieve this consistently.
          Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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          • #65
            Re: James Cameron - God Among Screenwriters or Hack?

            So the two female characters you really don't like come from two of the most consciously Americanised, warmhearted, upbeat, happily-ended films the UK's every produced... interesting clash of realism and aspiration

            You're right though. Bridget Jones is appalling, but no worse than the Sex In The City coven.

            I think you're right about American optimism, although it shifts all too easily into a sense of exceptionalist entitlement.

            I heard this analysis once of why Europeans tax the rich more than Americans do. Europeans want the buggers to contribute to the common good, and Americans are thinking 'I'm gonna be rich one day, and I don't want to be taxed much'.

            But back to Avatar - do you truly think that its thesis about genocide being a bad thing was an inspiration to anyone over, say, 20?

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            • #66
              Re: James Cameron - God Among Screenwriters or Hack?

              Primal
              I agree that's what he's shooting for. But he generally hits sentimental gloop.

              I'd love him to hit primal, really. Star Wars hits primal. Abba The Movie hits primal (mostly because of the music). Ronin hits primal. Toy Story hits primal. Cameron, not so much.

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              • #67
                Re: James Cameron - God Among Screenwriters or Hack?

                Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                Primal -- that's it. Cameron does achieve this consistently.
                Sc111, don't you think it has something to do with the monomyth?

                Why one, can't you just debate without talking about the one who writes ideas instead of talking about the ideas themselves?You don't look good that way. Debate, please.
                The question is : Do you work in the business?

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                • #68
                  Re: James Cameron - God Among Screenwriters or Hack?

                  So now THE MATRIX and James Cameron's writing is reduced to "puerile old crap"?
                  In my opinion yes. And clearly not in your opinion. It's really not about superiority for superiority's sake, but clearly I'll never convince you of that so I'm not even going to try.

                  Rather than flinging the ad hominems about, how about making the case for Cameron being a god amongst screenwriters, in terms of his actual screenwriting, rather than how much money his films have made.

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                  • #69
                    Re: James Cameron - God Among Screenwriters or Hack?

                    Originally posted by spinningdoc View Post
                    But back to Avatar - do you truly think that its thesis about genocide being a bad thing was an inspiration to anyone over, say, 20?
                    Yes - but not consciously.

                    I think the Sufi approach to why storytelling is the most powerful teaching tool explains it.

                    The ego relaxes its resistance to moral "shoulds" and "should nots" when it's distracted by other elements in the story. Meanwhile the moral message slips into the subconscious and takes root.

                    The visual effects of Avatar were a perfect example. While the senses are distracting the ego with blue people in their lush world, the "message" is being slipped in.

                    I would bet the genocide angle in Avatar met with far less intellectual resistance in audiences than actually doing a film about contemporary genocide in various parts of the world.

                    While one may look away and consciously strive to forget the images of slaughtered children, they're more likely to digest the images of slaughtered blue people because they're "not real."
                    However, the subconscious mind doesn't make the distinction.

                    The trick is to fool the reader into consciously thinking "this is not real and has no chance of ever being real." The audience's defenses lower and you can slip in all sorts of moral messages undetected.
                    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                    • #70
                      Re: James Cameron - God Among Screenwriters or Hack?

                      So the real debate is over what is good writing?

                      And everybody is going to give a different answer and that answer is going to reflect personal tastes.

                      You want X, she wants Y and he wants Z. Everybody is right.

                      To me, great writing is a great story.

                      And yes, Cameron does take himself way too seriously.
                      Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue

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                      • #71
                        Re: James Cameron - God Among Screenwriters or Hack?

                        Originally posted by Takeshiro View Post
                        Sc111, don't you think it has something to do with the monomyth?
                        Yes - definitely. The work of Campbell and his students analyzing monomythic dreams is amazing -- people from vastly different countries and different levels of education have similar dreams with the same monomyths at play.

                        Great point you made -- monomyth is definitely one of Cameron's strengths.
                        Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: James Cameron - God Among Screenwriters or Hack?

                          See, you'd have to convince me there'd be any resistance to the idea that 'genocide is bad' in the first place.

                          In practice, obviously, it happens - the Balkans, the horn of Africa just the obvious recent ones.

                          Most people would be about as clear on that as they could be, and sincere about it. The urge to lecture people on moral issues that have a simple answer in theory but in practice they've found get very complicated is a really adolescent way of behaving.

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                          • #73
                            Re: James Cameron - God Among Screenwriters or Hack?

                            To me, great writing is a great story.
                            And what's great story?

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                            • #74
                              Re: James Cameron - God Among Screenwriters or Hack?

                              Originally posted by spinningdoc View Post
                              See, you'd have to convince me there'd be any resistance to the idea that 'genocide is bad' in the first place.

                              In practice, obviously, it happens - the Balkans, the horn of Africa just the obvious recent ones.

                              Most people would be about as clear on that as they could be, and sincere about it. The urge to lecture people on moral issues that have a simple answer in theory but in practice they've found get very complicated is a really adolescent way of behaving.

                              The resistance is -- "genocide is something that happens to those people, over there, not on our turf. Truly sad but not our problem." Then it's easily disregarded or filtered by the conscious mind, never making it to the subconscious mind.

                              But if I tell you a story about blue people in their beautiful world. And I use compelling otherworldly images, I'm more likely to to impress on your subconscious mind the deep ramifications of genocide and how it impacts all of us before your conscious mind has a chance to edit it.
                              Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                              • #75
                                Re: James Cameron - God Among Screenwriters or Hack?

                                Originally posted by spinningdoc View Post
                                And what's great story?
                                To me the strength of AVATAR lies in the scope of Jake's adventure. He leaves everything behind, not just his planet and everything familiar to him, but his own species and his own human form. Other characters have traveled wide and far in films, but there is usually still a connection to the world they once inhabited: fellow humans, technology, maybe even a cold beer in the spaceship's lounge.

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